so are we ready for WW3?

[Domer]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

No country is justified in bombing another country without sufficient aggression from the other country. The international community let the US get away with Iraq, it won't let them go after millions of innocent people in Iran.

Sufficient aggression? Let's see here...

1. Iran does not recognize Israel as a country.
2. Iran trains and supports Hezbollah, their proxy military to attack Israel.
3. Iran has had as official foreign policy since Khomeini took over that Israel should be destroyed.

They are more than justified in attacking them right now, let alone if they make nuclear weapons.

You seem to be under the impression that the US will attack Iran. This is not what is going to occur. Israel will bomb the Iranian nuclear facilities, just like Israel did in Iraq. If the religious nutsos in Iran are stupid enough to do anything, we have thousands of troops on their eastern (Afghanistan) and western (Iraq) borders as well as the most powerful navy/air force in the world right off their coast. Any action taken against Israel will be signing their own death sentence.

[Cheap Tipper]

Originally Posted by Domer

Sufficient aggression? Let's see here...

1. Iran does not recognize Israel as a country.
2. Iran trains and supports Hezbollah, their proxy military to attack Israel.
3. Iran has had as official foreign policy since Khomeini took over that Israel should be destroyed.

They are more than justified in attacking them right now, let alone if they make nuclear weapons.

You seem to be under the impression that the US will attack Iran. This is not what is going to occur. Israel will bomb the Iranian nuclear facilities, just like Israel did in Iraq. If the religious nutsos in Iran are stupid enough to do anything, we have thousands of troops on their eastern (Afghanistan) and western (Iraq) borders as well as the most powerful navy/air force in the world right off their coast. Any action taken against Israel will be signing their own death sentence.

Wrong. The USA will not allow this to happen. If they go to war with Iran, it will signal the end of the occupation of Iraq. You simply don't have this endless supply of troops coming over from inner city Detroit willing to die for oil.

[Domer]

Originally Posted by StarnetGypsy

be nice mate. education here is what a person makes of it

righty right?

No one in this thread said Iran was an arab nation. If he wants to sling education insults, he should do a little introspection first.

[Cheap Tipper]

Originally Posted by JC

Israel went into Lebanon last year because they were being bombarded with rocket attacks on a daily basis. It was hardly for "No reason."

Israel is the only true democracy in the region. That's a good reason to support them.

The "Palestinian" leadership, Arafat and others are the ones who have over the years taken a lion's share of the aid for themselves at the expense of their people.

I get the whole one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Believe me I do, more than you'll ever know. However, I don't see how blowing up buses full of school children or wedding receptions advances their cause. When Israel hits civilian targets, it is truly collateral damage. These animals target civilians.

I don't think there is some super strong Israel lobby in the US more powerful than the drug companies.

The whole "Palestinian" movement was not born out of some movement of Palstinian people, but out of anti-semitism.

When they carved Palestine into Israel and Jordan, Jordan got the lion's share of the land. Jordan and the other arab nations refused to accept any arab refugees into their country. Israel welcomed all Jewish refugees from around the world.

I don't know why the arabs hate the jews so much or resent their existence. If they could all agree to respect each other's borders, things would be a lot more peaceful. Look at Israel and Egypt, very peaceful since 1979.

Those are just a few of my thoughts.

see?

[Domer]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

Wrong. The USA will not allow this to happen.

Would you like to bet on this? I'm serious.

[Domer]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

see?

He isn't referring to Iran. Iran isn't even mentioned once in that single post.

[Cheap Tipper]

The last thing the US needs or wants to happen is another major military conflict in the Middle East. They simply don't have the resources to withstand three wars at the same time.

[indio]

Originally Posted by StarnetGypsy

now that's the smartest thing that's been said so far, Domer.

there's no debating about the right of Israel to exist, not when their very existence in the state they live in now was supported by the major western powers in '48.

the only thing we should be asking is how long are we (the western powers) going to stand on the sidelines before we put a halt to the constant violence from that region. (and fuck Bush/Cheney for escalating it)

Umm, i think the creation of Israel, weather one agrees or disagrees with it, it certainly worthy of debate. The politics of the whole thing was very complex, and I'm not going to go into detail. But it was very controversial at the time, and many in our government opposed it at the time, so just because Truman elected to support it does not decree that the right to evict a whole group of people from their homeland, so that a group of other people around the world who are of the same religous beliefs and have far removed traces of ancestry to a region has a right to create their own new country where other people lived. Once again, this is not a pro or con opinion, just conveying that to say the creation of Israel is no longer worthy of any debate, just because it was endorsed by Western leaders, is just a bit too assumptive for my tastes.

Sorry Gyps, just had to throw my 2 cents in on that one.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

I live in Canada now. If me and my buddies start launching missiles into Buffalo from Toronto, does that give the US government carte blanche to attack all of Canada? The international community wouldn't stand for it.

If the Canadian government did nothing about it, or showed that they had absolutely no control of the region, I don't think the international community would object.

[Total Square]

give vega enough rope, and he hangs himself.

carry on sean

[Total Square]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

Why then, can 90% of Americans not point out Israel on a world map?

99.9% wouldnt know where calgary is asshole


maybe its time to start playing with the lights in the arena again

[Cheap Tipper]

Why would they know where Calgary is? Very insignifigant city. Just becasue I live there doesn't mean everyone else should know where it is. Israel is a different story.

[Ironlock]

Why anyone would argue with a fool like this guy is beyond me. Let him rot in ignorance.

Iron.

[indio]

C'mon folks, there is a lot of oversimplification as pertaining to Israel as somehow, just a docile , defense minded only, open our arms to all democracy, and all it's enemies are bloodthirsty monsters.

The slaughter of innocent women and children by the Irgun , led my Menachem Begin in 1948 should never be forgotten. Funny how many Irsralei's like to claim this slaughter never happened, but they are never subjected to the ridicule that Holucust deniers are. Heck, the Irgun bombed innocent women and children at the King David hotel. And it's leader,(Begin) who was once on Great Britian's 10 most wanted terrorist list, later became Israels Prime Minister. And anyone who condones Begin's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 as self-defense is delusional.

Let us never forget the atrocities committed under the leadership of Gen. Sharon at the Sabra refugee camps. This was not self-defense, this was genocide.

And while were at it, care to try to convince any crewman who was aboard the U.S.S. LIBERTY that the hour long attack by Israeli fighter jets that took the lives of 33 US Navy soldiers was an "accident" that they officially claimed?

Can anyone really condone the statement Ben-Gurion made when he said he believed in the "moral and intellectual superiority" of the Jewish people? Ben-Guiron was quoted in Look Magazine as saying "he predicted one day that Israel would sit atop a one world government". This was quoted from a 1962 issue. I,in fairness do not own that issue, nor have I seen it with my own eyes, but it has been quoted by many, so i will look to get that issue someday.

Those who say the Koran is filled with teachings of killing all non-arab "infidels"( i never read the koran) never quote passages from the Talmud, which seem to classify Gentiles as "animals". Heck, if you read Leviticus 25 verses 44-46, it sure seems like a "holy endorsement" for Jews to own non-jewish servants. ( i welcome a better interpatation from any theologians).

How about old testament book Deuteronomy 7, verse 6 which says" For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself,above all people that are on the face of the earth." Now I'm no biblical expert, but i could at least see how some can view that as a holy condoning of one race being superior to another.

How about the alarming verses 17-19 from Jubilees chapter 32 ( form the orthodox) :

And the lord appeared to him by night and blessed him and said unto him"Thy name shall not be called Jacob, but Israel shall they name thy name.

And he said unto him again"I am the Lord who created the heaven and the earth, and i will increase thee and multiply thee exceedingly,and kings shall come forth from thee, and they shall judge everywhere where the foot of the sons of man has trodden.

And I will give to thy seed all the earth which is under heaven, and they shall judge all the nations according to their desires, and after that thee shall get possession of the whole earth and inherit it forever."



And for those who think Israel is some great democracy. Why is it that apx. 20% of the population is Palestinian, yet 0 palestinians are cabinet members? And Israel's immigration policy basically bars any non-jews from being citizens. These are all things that would be considered terrible here in the States, yet those same people who would be critical of exclusionary policies abroad not only do not criticize Israels policies, but they label anyone who does as anti-semites.

I believe that 99.9% of all Jewish, Arab, Asian, Christian, Muslim, Budhist, etc..... are all decent people for the most part. It is the extremist of all religions, political ideologies, races, clubs, etc... that are extremists, hateful, and ultimately dangerous. And their dangerous extremism extends from the belief that they are superior to other people by their intellect, race, or by their religion which deems them the " chosen people". All religions have slaughtered the innocent due to the belief of divinity.

But we must be honest with ourselves, hateful Muslims are known as terrorists and holy radical clerics, hateful Whites and christians are known as racists,and intolerant bigots. hateful blacks are known as revolutionaries, controversial, and criminal. ( this is using the premise that hateful is equivilent to the belief that they are superior to others, hence feeling hate towards others that they feel need to be wiped out). Why is it, the few hateful Jews who feel hateful are never mentioned, or percieved as such? You cannot tell me that every race and religion has a small group who are extremist, but the Jews are an exception?

The extremists in the Jewish people feel superior just like the extremists of all other religions. But they have been powerful and have known that to reach their lofty goals, they do it in much more clever ways. Your going to tell me that Jacob Schiff's extreme financing of the Bolshevik Revolution which created communism had nothing at all to do with religion? The very first government of Communist Russia had 384 Commissars. 13 were ethnic Russians and over 300 were Jews. You can look at quotes from The London Times, ambassador David Francis, and even Winston Churchill, who described the Russian Revolution as a takeover of Russia by "Bolshevik Jews". Naturally, Czarist Russia was considered very anti-semitic, and the influence of powerful Jewish bankers in both the Wilson Administration, and other governments, ultimately contributed to WW1, which created the league of nations, directly led to WW2, which created the holocaust, the United Nations, and the creation of Israel.

Now I am not stating that the Jews are behind everything in an attempt to rule the world. I think it would be naive though, to think that there are not some powerful Jews who try to influence world events in an attempt to have power and control.

The United States, Great Britian, Spain,Germany,France, Muslim fanatics, Arab States, Japan, China, Zimbabwe,Soviet Union, South Africa, and just about every nation of the world has committed atrocities towards mankind. Christians and Muslims alike have been guilty of atrocities that are unspeakable. I guess the whole point of this, was that Israel and the Jews, have been guilty of these atrocities as well. So let us not let fear of being labled as Anti -Semitic prevent us from being critical of Israel and Judaism just as we our to ourselves, and Christians, and arabs, and Islam.

[buffbetonsports]

Originally Posted by Cheap Tipper

The USA is the only country that has actually USED nucleur bombs on another country. They should not be lecturing the world on who should and should not be allowed to have them.

As for Iran, I hope they wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict has been fueling worldwide trouble for decades. Israel think they're so strong and mighty just because their money controls American politics. It's time they got a taste of their own medicine, for doing things like enslaving Palestinians and attacking Lebanon two years ago for no reason at all.

Do these statements seem reckless to anyone else?

In the first there is an implication the US should not have used any means to end WWII. Perhaps if the Allied Powers had not won and the ending was much different, you would not be a liberty to post your opinion.

In the second "I hope they wipe Israel off the face of the earth" wishing for the end of an entire race, country or religion of people sounds vaguely familiar.



I am trying to understand your position but I am having trouble.

[StarnetGypsy]

Originally Posted by Domer

No one in this thread said Iran was an arab nation. If he wants to sling education insults, he should do a little introspection first.

lol ... yeah, i caught that Domer.

personally, i think what we have here is "Little Billy Bitter" stirring up the waters ....

for myself, i seriously doubt anyone that is sane in our administration will allow any type of attack on Iran. we are just getting to the point that their citizens are fed up with Ahmadinejad's fanatical regime, and will probably do their best to oust him in the upcoming election .... UNLESS .... we allow/encourage Israel to attack them. at that point, all bets are off because then every swinging dick will line up in lockstep with Ahmadinejad waving the Iranian flag, chanting down with the Nazi fascists in Amerika!

we cannot allow that to happen, not when we're so close to accomplishing just the opposite ....

[StarnetGypsy]

Originally Posted by indio

Umm, i think the creation of Israel, weather one agrees or disagrees with it, it certainly worthy of debate. The politics of the whole thing was very complex, and I'm not going to go into detail. But it was very controversial at the time, and many in our government opposed it at the time, so just because Truman elected to support it does not decree that the right to evict a whole group of people from their homeland, so that a group of other people around the world who are of the same religous beliefs and have far removed traces of ancestry to a region has a right to create their own new country where other people lived. Once again, this is not a pro or con opinion, just conveying that to say the creation of Israel is no longer worthy of any debate, just because it was endorsed by Western leaders, is just a bit too assumptive for my tastes.

Sorry Gyps, just had to throw my 2 cents in on that one.

not a problem Indio. i think what i was saying is that there's no point in arguing it in that it's always going to come back to manifest destiny, yada yada yada .... not to mention a lengthy biblical vested interest, and claims the land never belonged to the Arabs/Philistines in the first place?

for myself, i do choose to side with the Palestinians. The Jews came back to Palestine after WWII and lived among the Arabs until Moshe organised an armed force in retalliation for attacks on the Jews to claim the land for themselves. Long story, and i don't care to go into it either ... but bottom line, "as anti-Semitism grew in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe) to Palestine began to increase markedly, creating much Arab resentment." (source)

basically, i look at it as me allowing you to come live with me, and then you shove a gun in my face and kick me outta my house, and take it over as your own.

for me however, it all comes back to the here and now, and whether people in the region are going to drag the world into a world war, or choose to live in peace. there's a very good chance we can get rid of Ahmadinejad, Bush, and Cheney all in one fell swoop. i say let's give it a chance ....

[Cheap Tipper]

Iran is not an Arab country. The people there speak Persian, not Arabic, and they are of a different racial background. Look at the skin tone - Iranians are as white as Germans or Frenchmen, just a bit hairier.

[StarnetGypsy]