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Old 08-06-2003, 09:34 PM
gradysfalcon gradysfalcon is offline
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Default Debate Over Rebates Continues at Law Conference

by Tom Precious
Date Posted: 8/5/03 4:20:18 PM
Last Updated: 8/5/03 4:20:18 PM

A track operator and a leading handicapper at an Albany Law School conference Aug. 5 were unable, not surprisingly, to agree whether the growing use of rebates in the racing industry is a good thing.
But Jim McAlpine, president of Magna Entertainment Corp., and Paul Cornman, who bets $1 million a year from a complimentary Las Vegas hotel room that has been turned into his own betting mecca, agreed on one thing: Rebates are here to stay. In what form, though, remains uncertain.

One panelist, Stan Sadinsky, chairman of the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commission, which runs the province's casinos and racetrack video lottery terminal operations, said governments may need to turn to more regulations to ensure that bettors are protected, especially in dealing with offshore betting hubs that have been attracting more and more bettors in recent years with the lure of rebates. Banning race signals to offshore companies could end up hurting tracks.

But one idea, he said, would be to require those sending signals to the rebate companies to get more information on the ownership of the rebate companies. "Short of prohibition, I think there are some things you can do to make it a safer climate," Sadinsky said.

But McAlpine said regulators "should let the free market take care of it." He said governments should encourage more, not less, broad-based betting options, and make legal the concept of rebates for tracks in all states to let them better compete with offshore and Indian reservation betting companies.

McAlpine termed as "poachers" betting companies that entice consumers with rebates racetracks can't offer. He said the rebate companies benefit by undercutting tracks and operate with little or no overhead. They avoid having to kick in any revenue for purses or racetrack infrastructure expenses.

"There's not a level playing field," McAlpine said.

McAlpine said he believes "poachers" are handling $1.5 billion in racing bets each year, and attracting more and more deep-pocket bettors who can afford to lose their bets knowing rebates will make them whole. He said he knows of one individual who, through the use of a high-tech betting system, wagers more than $200 million a year supported by the rebate system.

Chris Scherf, executive vice president of the Thoroughbred Racing Associations, said rebates are creating a public relations problem for the racing industry because bettors think racetracks have been overcharging them. "These are our bettors, and we now have a situation where the tail wags the dog," Scherf said of the relationship between rebate betting firms and racetracks.

Cornman said rebates should be encouraged to help draw more big bettors to the industry. "Anyone who is at the track every day should get something," he said.

After the panel discussion, Bennett Liebman, head of the Albany Law School program on racing and wagering, said it is clear the "racing industry really needs to come to grips with this issue."
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Old 08-06-2003, 11:14 PM
gamblertony gamblertony is offline
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Someone gets to live for free in his own "betting mecca" for $1,000,000 a year handle AND gets a rebate? Or is a large part of his rebate (if not all) his free accomodations?
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Old 08-07-2003, 03:48 AM
niltes niltes is offline
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the deals and comps that my acquaintances received from different vegas hotels was eye-opening. there were 3 of them and they wagered about 50k/day between them. even after rebates were supposedly stopped, the hotels were able to compete and continue to earn these guys' business. i've lost touch with my contact, so i can not say what type of treatment they get for their action now.
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:01 AM
Holy Bull Holy Bull is offline
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I'd venture to say that he bets much more than 1,000,000 a year and most of it doesn't go through the hotel he is staying at, just a quota to earn enough comps to keep the room. To even make a bet from your room, you'd have to call the system and get paged back so they can verify you are in Nevada (they do this with sports too) so it becomes a real pain in the ass if you are trying to get in bets near post.
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:55 AM
niltes niltes is offline
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they NEVER verified through a callback that my acquaintances were in their hotel room, which they always were. however it's been 3 years since i watched them wager.
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Old 08-07-2003, 03:18 PM
Holy Bull Holy Bull is offline
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Its a newer addition to the wonderful vegas sportsbook scene. They figure not taking a bet wasn't good enough, so they had to make it a pain to even try [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:49 PM
maria sharapova maria sharapova is offline
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Don't bet american racing much,but if I wanted to,and I
couldn't receive a rebate or at least obtain fixed odds, i wouldn't
even bother. A person not receiving a rebate is at a serious competitive disadvantage
in relation to the rebate player.The rebate players can hammer positive
expectation bets til their negative expectation punts yet still make
a profit with the rebate,leaving the non-rebate player in the
long-term red.

It's not just a matter of being "overcharged".It would be
like someone at a restaurant not only being charged
less for their meal,but having the rebate patron come
over to my table ,nick half my food,drink my wine
and tongue-kiss my date,then when i whinge
to the racing board I'm told"well he does have
a bankroll that is considerably more well-endowed
than yours."
Still can't imagine a poker game with variable rakes
for different players at the same table.
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Old 08-10-2003, 12:34 AM
OscarBarrera OscarBarrera is offline
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Looks like the common folk are wising up to the scam the tracks have been running for 50 years. The take is way too high, confiscitory in fact. A suckers game unless you're a race fixer or insider with a huge edge.

Ah, but the rebate, well, that's the great equalizer. So you pump mass quantities of exacta arb bets into the system , break even , and collect the rebate. Nice living if you're a decent player (and pay for proprietary information).

And Cornman has to bet more than 1 million , who is he kidding.
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