occurence at Taj poker table

[JamesUS527]

Went yesterday to the TAJ in AC and played some 3-6 holdem (1-3 blinds). There was an interesting occurence during the game and I'd like to hear any opinions about it. Also had one pretty interesting hand which I will relate afterward if any one cares to read about it.

First the event: I had folded a poor hand and so was not involved, but watched intently. There were 4 people in the hand to the end with a good bit of betting raising and re-raising. The pot was good size in the end. After the river, there is some betting around and it finally comes to the button who is last to act but does not call the bet by putting chips out. She simply shows her cards which reveal a straight. The other players either show their cards or muck and the dealer announces that button has the winning hand and pushes the chips to her. In my mind, her not having put chips into the pot makes her hand dead since she did not call the bet. If I had been in the hand, I would have called the floor to request a ruling in that vein, but since I wasn't involved I didn't want to get involved as it is rarely appreciated. Any thoughts?

Interesting hand: I was in middle position and dealt a pair of 9s and raised at my turn. A couple of limpers come in including the small blind. The flop comes 9 8 2 rainbow. (I hear the small blind say to himself “I got some of that). The small blind bets, I raise, the others get out and the blind calls. The turn comes 8. It is just the small blind and me now. He bets I raise he re-raises I re raise and he re-raises I re-raise. Because there are only the two of us, there is no cap on the raises so we go back forth about15 times. Finally, I’m thinking maybe the guy (pretty young fellow) has pocket 8s and slow played the flop because of the 9 on the board…I don’t know…but maybe, just maybe he has quads, so I call after a lot of back and forth. The river comes 10. I think there might have been 3 suited on the board, don’t exactly remember now. He bets (he is just about out of chips anyway) and I call. He turns over 8 10, giving him 8s full which loses to my 9s full. He was a gentleman and congratulated me on the hand (unlike so many other players I have seen at the TAJ). There was a mountain of chips in the pot…funny as hell. I thought the calibre of play on the table was very average and could have been taken advantage of by good players.

[HuskerFan]

when i read it....i said to myself he had 82 in his hand b/c he was in the blinds...when ur holding the nut boat (which u had on the turn)...the nut boat when all said and done was ten's full.......having said that...id raise and raise until i was out of chips...u heard him say he had a piece of that flop so he isnt holding pocket 10's...ride ur hand to the end...if he's got quads so be it...ill push the nut boat as far as i can...

[Superfly]

Unless she clearly said "Call" or "Raise" before showing the hand, I agree with you. The hand should be dead. You don't get to declare and see other hands without calling the bet. Very poor dealer to allow that.

[JamesUS527]

One other aspect of the situation I remember makes it a bit more complex. As I have seen many dealers do, this dealer would gesture to each player at his/her turn to act and mention what kind of action was required or how much the bet was. The dealer was doing this, but I distincly remember that she did not gesture to the button who showed her cards instead of acting. I think that could have been something of a defense if trouble had ensued. I think I would have used it and it is possible that the player could have been relying on that action and when it was not forthcoming, thought it was showdown time.

[Superfly]

I would defer to the guys here who deal or have dealt for a living, but it sure seems to me that the dealer could do a better job controlling the table. If the player who won the pot didn't win, I wonder what would have happened when the dealer pushed the pot to the winner. Would he have gone back to the first to declare for the chips?

[Minnow]

Interesting situation.. it really does seem like the player might have become accustomed to the guidence of the dealer, and I don't know enough about live poker to even guess how a ruling might have gone down, but in my mind, unless it was a learn to play poker table the woman lost the hand since she hadn't put in her chips.

Had another player topped her straight would she have been forced to pay the bet and make the pot right?

[drunkguy]

if you show your cards to the table, does that automatically void the hand?

I don;t know if that is a rule or not.

I can see the dillemna...cards weren't mucked, but player didn't throw chips in or verbally call.

So in that case, action is still on the button since no fold or bet was declared. Dealer was definitely not in control of the table, but players were obviously sloppy too.

That is why I absolutely dread playing live poker anymore. Sure, there is a TON of dead money which definitely makes it worthwhile, but the aggravation is horrible.

Players have no concept of table ettiquette or "rules" of the game anymore

[Bobby C]

Based on my years of experience as a poker dealer and floorman, here are my thoughts:

--The biggest myth in poker is, "if you expose your hand, it's dead". There is no rule that says such, except for house rules written by managers who have idiot floormen, who cannot be relied upon to make a judgement call. In cases where no one is left to act, showing your cards cannot affect the action, so why mandate the "death penalty" for something so harmless? If showing your cards does affect the action, then Robert's Rules and the Tournament Director's Assn's rules say that "a penalty may be enforced". Killing the hand is not the only penalty available. A 10-minute or 20-minute "time-out" from the table may be executed. But in almost all cases, the player exposing his hand did it with no sinister intention, and a warning should suffice.

--James sounds like he's new to the B&M game. I think it's possible that the facts of this hand are not as he relates them. For example, he said this dealer is in the habit of pointing to a player when it's his/her turn to act. The fact that she didn't point to this last player, coupled with the last player not considering to put chips in, indicates to me that she was the bettor or last raiser, and owed no more chips to the pot. She acted like this was the case; so did the dealer; and so did all the other players in the hand. Now it's possible that you're right, and all these experienced players/dealers are wrong--but I doubt it.

[Bobby C]

Originally posted by: Superfly
I would defer to the guys here who deal or have dealt for a living, but it sure seems to me that the dealer could do a better job controlling the table. If the player who won the pot didn't win, I wonder what would have happened when the dealer pushed the pot to the winner. Would he have gone back to the first to declare for the chips?

Don't EVER rely on the dealer to "control the table". Each player has a responsibility to "protect your cards, and protect your action". That means when you see a pot about to be pushed to someone who doesn't deserve it, it's up to you to stop the action, BEFORE THAT POT GETS PUSHED. If wait until afterwards to speak up, there isn't much that can be done to back up the action.

There's a lot of money lost every single day, by people who sit back thoughtlessly, and expect the dealer to protect them. The dealer is there for your convenience. Think of him as your employee: You're responsible for everything he does, so keep a close eye on him, and be ready to jump in if you see him making a mistake. If you let your guard down, and he goes and costs you a pot, that's YOUR fault, not his.

Sorry, I wish it were a perfect world. But it's not. If you put the dealer on the hook for everything that could go wrong, no one would deal. Besides, it's a lot easier for ten people to look out for themselves, than one person to look out for ten others.

[JamesUS527]

Bobby C writes: "--James sounds like he's new to the B&M game. I think it's possible that the facts of this hand are not as he relates them. For example, he said this dealer is in the habit of pointing to a player when it's his/her turn to act." One of the things you might not be familiar with in live poker is that chips remain in front of each player until the betting round is finished. They are not put into the pot. The button had no chips out front, there had been no bet. The dealer, who is not perfect nor required to be, I thought simply had not motioned to the button to bet.

Despite the fact that dealers are not perfect, they are required to control the game and be expert at playing by the rules and enforcing the. That said, as it clearly says in Binions poker room: each player is responsible to protect his own hand. The dealer cannot see and do everything. You have to stand up for yourself. In this case, half the table was talking about what happened, but none of the players involved in the hand took up the case until it too late and we had moved on.

If a player shows his hand, it is declared a dead hand. Happens to be a standing rule of poker.

[Bobby C]

In my mind, her not having put chips into the pot makes her hand dead since she did not call the bet....Any thoughts?

I posted my thoughts. You told me I'm wrong. Why did you ask for my thoughts, if your mind was already made up?

If a player shows his hand, it is declared a dead hand. Happens to be a standing rule of poker.

Oh really?

I just re-read Robert's Rules of Poker (pdf), and saw no mention of this "standing rule of poker". It is mentioned in the section marked "Etiquette", where the heading reads, "The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator". Since you give no indication that the lady in question was trying something underhanded, then I stand by my earlier decision that "a warning should suffice".

The other "official" rules of poker are the TDA Rules. These apply to tournaments--the very form of poker that led to this myth--and rule 35 says, in its entirety:

A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.

I don't know how to make it any plainer. You are 100% wrong when you say, "If a player shows his hand, it is declared a dead hand. Happens to be a standing rule of poker." There is no mention of killing such a hand in Robert's Rules (generally acknowledged as the most comprehensive rulebook out there); and killing the hand is in fact specifically prohibited in the TDA rules.

Before you suggest that TDA Rules should not apply to a cash game, it should also be noted that Robert's Rules mention in the intro that "Nearly all the rules herein are compatible with the TDA rules, although there are some slight differences in wording." Robert is pretty much saying, "TDA Rules are OK with me."

[Bobby C]

Having said all that: The only rule that matters is Rule #1 under "Decision-Making":

1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

This lady had the best hand. She gets the pot. If we need to back up the action to get her chips in first, that's fine, since there was no significant action occuring after her turn to act.

In all cases, all effort should be made to ensure the best hand gets the pot. Looking to kill the best hand because of a ticky-tack thing like this is not remotely "in the spirit of fairness".

[JamesUS527]

Well, I guess the optimal strategy in a cash game, if you are last to act, and considering calling the bet would be to simply show your cards. You could do that from time to time and get a reaction. Unfortunately (or fortunately) you cannot do that. But, thanks for your "thoughts". But, no need to become angry. Just a little discussion.

[nehpets]

QUOTE "One of the things you might not be familiar with in live poker " ....
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
could see Bobby C's reply coming strong to that
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[big behn]

first off,

If a player shows his hand, it is declared a dead hand. Happens to be a standing rule of poker.

absolutely wrong. not in my experience and not according to any cash game rulebook i have ever read.

as soon as the button shows her hand, the dealer should have quickly pointed out the fact that she hadn't acted yet and insisted that she do so immediately. hopefully, this would stop everyone else from turning over their hands. i would expect a reasonably skilled and attentive dealer to be able to do so. however, the more offensive gaffe by the dealer is to go so far as to award the pot to a hand that had not even acted. the dealer should probably be written up for this.

failing this, it is still the responsibility of the other players to protect their action and not turn over their own hands until they are satisfied that action is complete.

additionally, if it is determined based on past evidence that the button intentionally caused this situation as a potential angle, she should be dealt with appropriate progressive discipline.. e.g. warning, suspension, permanent barring. though, this certainly doesn't sound like the situation described.

[JamesUS527]

I have seen players place their hands face down on the table in cash games at Binions and have their hands declared dead.

An example: all the betting in a round has been completed and a player turns his cards over. What is the ruling?

Turning your cards over on the table without calling a bet is tantamount to mucking your cards.

This has been my experience and I felt should have been the dealer's ruling in the example I originally presented. I mean this player never actually called the bet at all. Admittedly the dealer screwed up, but when you show your cards you are saying something and I think you are not calling. When you don't call, you have folded.

[Bobby C]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Turning your cards over on the table without calling a bet is tantamount to mucking your cards.</end quote></div>

I just don't understand where you ever got that idea. I can only guess you play in a cardroom with some whacky house rules.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, cardrooms across the country are staffed--even managed--by people who had never set foot in a poker room before the introduction of The Travel Channel. And these people are making the rules.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>...when you show your cards you are saying something...</end quote></div>

In this case, all she is saying is, "Looks like the betting is over, and it's time to show the cards." She's not relinquishing the pot, her cards, nor her action.

[Bobby C]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> the dealer should probably be written up for this.</end quote></div>

The best dealer in the world is still going to do something like this once or twice a year. Unless the dealer in question is a chronic screw-up, there's no need to write up a good dealer--he knows he failed, he feels bad about it, and he'll be more diligent in the immediate future.

I like to think I'm a very good dealer (kind of like how people boast about being "an excellent driver", as if they mastered something difficult). About once a year, I'll do something mind-boggling, like spread a flop in a stud game, or drop the deck on the turn, or put out the turn card before the betting on the flop has been complete.

Dealers have a dull, monotonous job, and their brains often go to sleep on the job. There's no getting around this, it's a fact of poker life. That's why they get so many breaks.

So get used to it.

[JamesUS527]

I am not faulting the dealer. I understand no one is perfect and there is a lot going on. The action came to the button and she immediately laid her cards down without calling the bet. I certainly would not have asked for anybody to be written up or anything...that is BS. (If a dealer is not any good in my view, I just hit him/her in the pocketbook) But IF I had been in the hand, I'd ask the floor for a ruling. In this case, would this player be allowed to fold her hand if after she dislosed her cards and after others did the same and now she sees that she is beaten by another hand?

Bobby C, if I may ask a question, how would you handle this situation:

No limit holdem, there's lots of action before the flop, comes back to the big blind, he goes all in and then lays his two aces face up on the table before anyone else has a chance to act after his all in bet.