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Old 04-29-2002, 05:43 PM
Conrad Conrad is offline
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Default Internet casinos: would this groundbreaking idea work?

I've been looking at internet casinos lately and the one notion that always springs to mind is, "do you really get a fair shot at winning?" Let's face it: you don't see the roulette wheel spinning and you don't see the little ball. All you get is a computer on the other side that is supposed to make a seemingly random decision.

But what if you could see the roulette wheel? And a real one at that? Wouldn't it breach the lack of faith that many bettors have towards internet casinos? Wouldn't it be entirely different if you could wager on the outcome of a real spin? How many more customers could internet casinos attract this way? These are all questions that come to mind.

My idea goes further though. Instead of having a book set up its own wheel/live feed, why not have a separate organization do just that and supply the end product to dozens of internet casinos? That way people could all bet into a global roulette wheel! There would be no issue of getting more luck here or there, or one casino setup looking more suspicious than the other. Everyone would play into the same spin, the same number - no matter where they were located or who they were betting with (as long as the casino in question signed up for this product). I'm sure the entire venture would even find its place in the Guinness Book of World Records as being the (virtual) roulette wheel with the world's largest number of simultaneous participants.

Anyway, the idea is directed at both internet casinos/sportsbooks and bettors alike. If you run/own an internet casino, would you add this as an option knowing that you will be able to offer a trustworthy product to your customers, where your own software doesn't decide what number the ball lands on? And if you are a gambler, would you welcome this idea knowing that you'd be playing into a real roulette wheel (with the internet casino itself not deciding the outcome)?
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Old 04-29-2002, 07:13 PM
buddyboy buddyboy is offline
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I think this was done before. casinolive.com or something like that.

couple of problems.

1. waiting for everyone to place their bets.

2. video feeds were slow back then. (bandwidth issues too)

the computer games play much faster,

Maybe more people would play the games if they could see the hands dealt or the wheel spinning but the casino would get less spins/hands per hour.

Bottom line is how much more would the casino win if they offered this? and would it offset the cost of implementing a video feed?
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Old 04-29-2002, 07:30 PM
CaptainK CaptainK is offline
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I'm sorry to say Conrad that while this isn't a bad idea, it probably isn't "groundbreaking" as you suggest.

Stanley Ho (www.drho.com) has been offering "live wagering" for a while now where online customers can wager on live games. I'm not certain, but I think roulette is offered, although I believe their software was designed with blackjack and bacarrat in mind. Last I heard, they were sued by i2corp.com for patent infringement. i2corp has something called the Home Gambling Network I think, and has some sort of claim that they were the first to patent the business method for live event wagering for money, although I am rather doubtful that this patent can be defended.

In fact, I've been hearing various people talk about various versions of your idea since I got involved in this industry about 5 years ago. One of the problems to date has obviously been bandwidth. It's simply easier to push light graphics to the user than live, real images (especially of a rapidly spinning roulette wheel). I remember there was even someone (I think in St Kitts) who streamed live female dealers who would deal blackjack and when you hit blackjack they'd strip! It was about as exciting as watching someone 20 metres away read a porno-mag.

Your idea about a common organization, while more unique, is still not original. I remember the people at the Riviera Casino in Antigua talking about this 2 years ago, I think in conjunction with Victor Chandler (again I'm not certain). I also heard the St. James Club had the same idea. In a more obtuse comparison, I think Will Hill and a few others have sold lottery tickets whereby the winning numbers would be those of a certain government lottery - while clearly different, it is analagous.

Perhaps the biggest current detriment to your model, aside from bandwidth/technology, is finding that "trustworthy" organization to run your games.
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Old 04-29-2002, 07:31 PM
Caitlyn Cwissy Caitlyn Cwissy is offline
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What I would like to see is a virtual sportsbook, where you can bet on computer simulated games. Think Madden 2002 meets WSEX. It will be just like the real thing, with point spreads, prop bets, parlays etc. You could either have the game played automatically or be a coach for the team you bet on.

Think about it. I don't see why it can't be done. The technology is there already. Problem is you still might have point shavers. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
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Old 04-29-2002, 07:47 PM
Machiavelli Machiavelli is offline
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I think it is a great idea. Of course, the casinos would then have to put their trust into the organization running the roulette wheel, baccarat, or craps table.
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Old 04-29-2002, 07:52 PM
alsoran alsoran is offline
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I like your intention but I think this idea would be just as open to fraud as any other.

For one thing, what guarantee is there that the wheel is not fixed?
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Old 04-29-2002, 09:06 PM
Conrad Conrad is offline
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Perhaps the biggest current detriment to your model, aside from bandwidth/technology, is finding that "trustworthy" organization to run your games.

Of course, the casinos would then have to put their trust into the organization running the roulette wheel

I like your intention but I think this idea would be just as open to fraud as any other. For one thing, what guarantee is there that the wheel is not fixed?

What if the company would strike a major deal with a prominent casino (doesn't necessarily have to be in Vegas)? They could set up a deal with the casino and then provide the technology to make it all happen. That would make it as trustworthy as it could get (as far as online gambling is concerned).
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Old 04-29-2002, 09:09 PM
buckeye buckeye is offline
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My thoughts are the same as alsoran's. Without some commission or governing body inspecting and verifying fair play, a "live feed" game is just as apt to be crooked as any other. It may be a tad less easy to rig the wheel or have a dealer deal seconds, etc. than it is to program the chip to screw you, but it isn't really any more protection against fraud. Loaded die at a craps "feed" would be really easy to pull off.

I wouldn't play real $ on online casino games period. The main reason is the game could be rigged and the vig is so bad to start with. Secondarily, much of my enjoyment in casino gambling comes from interaction with the dealer and fellow players and friends, and even an occasional friendly pitstiff. You don't get any of that at an online casino - just the losses! It is a reason I don't play slots much, as well. There isn't the same camraderie you get at the craps tables or BJ, etc. Unless you play >100% return VP, or just get lucky and hit a big jackpot and stop, you're going to lose. I may be in the minority, but it seems more pathetic, to me, to sit at a slot for hours and lose than to cheer on a shooter or high five another BJ player every once in a while. Maybe I've just never gotten into slots enough to "get it".

I am not skilled enough ( counting cards is too much like work ) to have a positive EV in any casino games. But even if I was, I'm sure the computer-based online s/w has all the countermeasures necessary to insure no one has a long term edge. So there is no upside, nor any of the "fun"/interaction you get at craps or a "party BJ table". Might as well play a simulation game for free, IMHO. Some are entertained by the lights and monotony of slots "I sometimes call them slot sluts", but it's just not my cup of tea.

JMHO
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Old 04-29-2002, 09:12 PM
alsoran alsoran is offline
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That's right. It could not be a Las Vegas or any American casino. That's OK, since there are plenty of solid legit casinos around the world.

But why would they lend their name for someone else's enterprise? Why not just run their own online casino with their own wheel?

Which brings us back to the question of whether you can trust that a game is not fixed [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:43 PM
Spearmaster Spearmaster is offline
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Firstly, the original casino was First Live - now defunct.

Secondly, Dr. Ho already does this - and re: definition of major casino, Dr. Ho is far bigger in Asian minds than any Vegas casino, and just as honest and trustworthy.

Thirdly, Ladbrokes/Gala are already doing this in their real casinos in London, though only for in-casino play. If you want to know the truth - the system sucks LOL. There's nothing like playing at a real table.

The point about realism and wanting to know one is not being cheated is well-taken, however. Perhaps when live video becomes of higher quality, especially when delivered over the Net, someone will come up with the killer app. Until then, it's really a poor option.

As for HGN/i2corp - I doubt they will ever be able to enforce their patents. Plus, HGN taking on Dr. Ho is like an ant taking on an elephant. The elephant would (or should) win every time.
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Old 05-01-2002, 01:27 PM
PATTON PATTON is offline
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<< What I would like to see is a virtual sportsbook, where you can bet on computer simulated games. Think Madden 2002 meets WSEX. It will be just like the real thing, with point spreads, prop bets, parlays etc. You could either have the game played automatically or be a coach for the team you bet on.

Think about it. I don't see why it can't be done. The technology is there already. Problem is you still might have point shavers. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
>>



Dell Dude,

I would sign in as "Pete Rose," coach one team and bet on the other!

BTW, I love my Dell, Dude!
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Old 05-01-2002, 01:35 PM
The Actuary The Actuary is offline
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<< Secondly, Dr. Ho already does this - and re: definition of major casino, Dr. Ho is far bigger in Asian minds than any Vegas casino, and just as honest and trustworthy >>



Hi Spear or Capt. K, I actually posted as much when someone asked about reputable online live dealing casinos, but have since been told this outfit has nothing to do with the "real" Dr Ho., other than this may be his nephew, either way he has tried to distance himself from this property.

True or untrue?

tyia
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Old 05-01-2002, 05:31 PM
CaptainK CaptainK is offline
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True, in that Stanley Ho has indeed tried to distance himself from DrHo.com. I doubt that Ho's company which owns/owned the Macau casino monopoly owns DrHo.com. No doubt this is to appease the anti-online gaming Chinese government and other potential regulatory bodies.

False, in that I think most people see through this. Peter Kjaer runs the company in Antigua. He's the husband of one of Ho's daughter's. Ho wouldn't just let his name be used by his son-in-law if he didn't want to. I also suspect Kjaer knows where his bread his buttered.
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Old 05-01-2002, 05:33 PM
Spearmaster Spearmaster is offline
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That would probably be untrue.

Drho.com, drholite.com and drho888.com are all run by Stanley Ho's son-in-law, apparently with his knowledge. I brought this point directly to them in a conference in August last year - and this was the answer that was given. At the time, I said something to the effect of "How in the world could you release a low-quality product in Dr. Ho's name?"

I will be seeing them again in a couple of months. But you can be relatively sure that no one would dare to use Dr. Ho's name without permission.
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Old 05-01-2002, 05:35 PM
Spearmaster Spearmaster is offline
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The "distancing" of Dr. Ho from the online operation is/was with the intent of protecting his already substantial stake in Macau, not to mention current public uproar over online gambling. Captain K has got it right there.
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Old 05-01-2002, 06:16 PM
Railbird Railbird is offline
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I am against Internet casinos, I think it is added bondage on American society and has no redeeming value. I hope Mr. Ashcroft does his best to do away with Online Casinos.
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Old 05-01-2002, 07:06 PM
buddyboy buddyboy is offline
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Railbird,

Hitler thought the same about the Jews as you do about online casinos.

Quit being so self rightous and educate your family and friends as to why you think internet casinos are bad instead of trying to eliminate them from the planet.

The world is full of good things and bad things for a reason. Who are you to decide what is good or evil for the rest of the world?

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Old 05-01-2002, 07:15 PM
Conrad Conrad is offline
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I think the US gov't feels more strongly about the issue than Railbird does. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
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Old 05-06-2002, 12:43 PM
CaptainK CaptainK is offline
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May 03, 2002

Judge limits coverage of LV firm's Internet gambling patent
By David Strow
&lt;strow@lasvegassun.com&gt;
LAS VEGAS SUN

A Las Vegas Internet gaming company suffered a setback this week in its legal battle against Macau casino tycoon Stanley Ho.

Home Gambling Network Inc., a subsidiary of i2 Corp., had sued Ho in federal court in an effort to shut down Ho's Internet casino. i2 had claimed the online casino -- licensed by the Caribbean island of Antigua -- violated i2's Internet gambling patent.

But in a Wednesday order, U.S. District Judge Larry Hicks in Las Vegas denied HGN's request for a preliminary injunction that would shut down Ho's Internet gambling site -- and suggested the defendants were more likely to prevail in the litigation.

Hicks also dismissed most of the defendants in the case, including Ho and his Macau casino operating company, saying the court didn't have proper jurisdiction because they lacked connections to Nevada. The only remaining defendant in the case is Caribbean Online Ltd., the Ho-controlled company that operates the Internet casino.

"It's what we expected, though obviously we wanted to try," Mel Molnick, president of HGN, said. "We're only disappointed they'll be able to continue taking wagers in the United States, and let a lot of people continue doing an illegal activity."

i2 controls a patent covering live casino games broadcast over the Internet for gambling purposes. The patent specifically applies to games involving electronic betting and payments.

Hicks said Ho's company was more likely to prevail in the lawsuit, since winnings are sent to players by check, not electronic transfer.

"The patent does not patent all live casino gambling over the Internet," Hicks wrote. "There is no allegation that the drho.com website pays debits and credits in (an instantaneous, electronic) manner."

But Molnick said the company still believes it can win the case. It plans to argue during trial that what Ho's website does is equivalent to electronic transfers, which would be covered under the i2 patent. That argument was not used in the motion for an injunction, Molnick said.

"It absolutely does violate the patent," Molnick said.

Hicks added that Ho's company was far more likely to suffer irreparable harm if the court issued a shutdown order, since it would close an operating business. HGN currently has no operating Internet casinos, but intends to license its patent to other Internet operators.

"Enjoining (Ho's) website would close an active business -- not a speculative opportunity," Hicks wrote. "(HGN) will continue to have the opportunity, if the injunction relief is denied, to ultimately prevail and seek either a licensing fee or an injunction of infringing conduct."
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