Asked and Answered: Cerebrus

[cerberus]

pmj18,

I don't believe I ever made any negative comments towards Americans last evening. I admit that I could have used a little more tact with my heading.

I merely wondered why some Americans always had to mention how great and powerful their country was. Heath didn't find anything objectional about that. Just as I think religion can be taken to fanatical levels, I also think that patriotism can reach fanatical levels.

In all honesty, the "we are so powerful" comments are what disturb me the most. I really think that some Americans get so caught up in the fact that they are the most powerful nation in the world.

Take a look at the heading - Stormin Norman.

"Drive back through Iran, Iraq, and for damn sure Palestine on the way back. Drop a sonic, wait 6 hours, go in on the ground, kill whatever is left, and then mow everything over with a tank. Leave nothing behind." - Splurge

These are the sentiments echoed by many posters here, and that scares the hell out of me. Do they really believe that the total annihalation of a country would have no long lasting negative repercussions? I just can't understand how that line of thinking wouldn't scare anybody. It just seems so full of uncontrolled hate, and I believe that the need for some Americans to remind themselves and the world of just how tough they are is responsible for some of these attitudes. It helps fuel the flames.

Our leader Chretien has promised full support of whatever retaliatory plans the US gov't devises, and I'm happy for that. But I must admit that I also have a bit of trepidation, only because of the sentiments of some of the posters here. If the US gov't thinks like Splurge, then I would want no part of something like that, and would be ashamed if Canada participated in any plan of that nature.

Clearly, the US gov't is weighing its options, and I believe that they understand that justice must be delivered, but at the same time innocent lives must be spared.

[Mr Memory]

Cerberus-- You've already shown your true
colors, elsewhere. These people are
psychotic, with no regard for other's
values . . . not to mention their retarded
human=rights standards, and their
abysmal treatment of women. Nice
subgroup (and I DO mean SUB . . .). My
toast to them? May they get PRECISELY
what they deserve . . .

[cerberus]

Mr. Memory,

You sir, are the one who is ignorant.

Since you want to seem to classify all muslims as sub-species, then I guess it would be okay to beat up on any muslim that you happen to come upon.

During WWII, weren't Americans of German heritage treated as traitors and spies? Weren't Americans of Japanese heritage herded up by the gov't and interned? Weren't Americans of Middle Eastern heritage despised during the Iranian hostage crisis, not to mention the ideas of mass deportation.

You say that :
"These people are psychotic, with no regard for other peoples values...not to mention their retarded human=right standards, and their abysmal treatment of women. Nice subgroup(and I do mean SUB...). My toast to them? May they get PRECISELY what they deserve...

Did the American people not conquer the native Indian man?
Did the American people not practice slavery?
Were women always allowed to vote?
Was there always salary equality between women and men?

Do I need to go on.

So, I guess the American people were sub-species.

Other countries may have lifestyles and ideoliogies that you don't approve of. Their practices might be morally questionable. But, the human race has the ability to evolve for the better.

The USA has made great strides in trying to correct their past mistakes. Give other countries time to correct theirs.

Go ahead, call me a pacifist or anti-American. But do me this one favour. Try to think things clearly before you spew your venemous nonsense.

[The Actuary]

Americans fanatical patriots?

Thank you for the laugh it was well needed.

[docriver]

Cerberus wrote :
"....I do not mean to belittle these accomplishments nor the intelligence that was needed to accomplish these feats, but the USA has an immeasurable advantage in these areas because they are so financially rich as a nation."

How did the U.S. become such a financially rich nation? How did the U.S. PUT ITSELF in such an immeasurable advantageous position?

Analogy : I do not mean to belittle the accomplishments nor the intelligence that was needed to accomplish these basketball feats, but Michael Jordan has an immeasurable advantage in these areas because he is so gifted as an athlete.

[cerberus]

Actuary,

You can choose to exaggerate my point, somehow that doesn't surprise me.

I simply believe that some Americans get too caught up in how "powerful" their country is. They think that they can just bomb the hell out of their enemies, and that there wont be any negative consequences. Or they don't care because when these consequences arise, then they'll just bomb them again.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but I hope that Bin Laden and his followers get the torturous death that they deserve, but please spare as many innocent lives as possile in the process.

I am eagerly awiting another eloquent response from you. Please grace me with one. Try to come up with one that has more substance, if you're able.

[The Actuary]

Yes am definitly known as one who exagerates and even more significantly posts frequently with no substance.......fortunately I've already responded in the Devil's thread, and I like the idea of ignoring you, rather than respond to the low class potshotting crap your dishing out.

[cerberus]

docriver,

I am a Canadian, so please forgive me if I err in my recollection of US history or my lack of knowledge in this area. In fact, history in general was never one of my keenest interests. But before people now jump out and accuse me of being uneducated, let me say that I have a university degree, not that that makes me educated or intelligent.

But, I believe that the USA, and any powerful country for that matter got there through conquest. Usually, these counquests or the conquering of other peoples wasn't always just or fair.

The USA has always been able to conquer, other countries such as my own, would probably always be conquered.

Isn't this why we have wars now, because other countries want to conquer, destroy, capture other countries peoples, resources, etc...

War is mor despised now, because I'd like to think that the people of this world are more civilized, and past injustices have been more or less forgiven. But the advantages definitely lie with those countries that did their conquering countless years ago, when that was the norm, and now through the passage of time, those tyrannies have been forgotten or forgiven.

Is it fair to say that the poor countries of the world who have never had the "opportunity to conquer" are not great? They have just never had the resources to show what they are capable of.

We could send the offspring of the most intelligent couple in the USA to another poor country to be raised from birth. If that child never gets to go to school because his foster parents have no money or they need him or her to help with their farm or whatever, does this mean that this child was not great? He never received the opportunity to be great, which is something we take for granted here in North America.

That is why we should all be so grateful for the freedom, and opportunities we enjoy as North Americans, and I am sure we are. But I don't think that Canada is any better than other third world countries because we have more technological, medical advantages, etc...

Those other countries just never had the chance to show what they could do. Don't the poor here in North America cry that the "rich get richer, and that the poor get poorer?" Well, how will those poorer, weaker countries ever catch up to the richer, and stronger countries? Sadly, they won't, and they aren't any less intelligent or innovative because of it.

[pmj18]

Cerebus I don't think you are uneducated, just jealous. I will not be responding any further to you, so fire away.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

[cerberus]

pmj18,

I know that you said you wouldn't be responding to me, but I'll try anyways.

What do you think that I am jealous of?
I just think it is too easy to say that because the USA, Canada, England, etc.. have made more advances than other countries that they are greater.

Do you not admit that we have more opportunities than other poorer countries? I just think it is unfair that those countries aren't considered great because they never had the chance to be.

In fact, I am grateful for the opportunities we have, not jealous. I just wish other countries had the same opportunities, but they don't, and they probably never will.

This is a world of haves and havenots, and just be thankful of where you are.

[The Devil]

Cerebus,

I agree......some of those other countries never had the chance to better themselves...but it wasn't because of America it was because they let their leaders dictate to them what they had to do.....Americans are not accustomed to be shit on.....

DON'T TREAD ON ME, wasn't only a flag....it is a way of life.....

Your origins are from a country where less then 1 percent of the population controls more then 99 percent of the wealth....yet if it wasn't for the good old US of A and our military mite your family might never have had the chance to migrate to Canada.....and give you the life and education you now enjoy.....

[cerberus]

Devil,

Like I said I am not a historian. So, enlighten me as to how the USA or any other powerful country got to be that way. Did they not have to do some conquering and plundering on the way there?

So these countries became powerful through these injustices, which over time have been forgotten or appeased.

If this is true, then why is it any more unjust now for stronger countries to try to exploit weaker countries? Was it any less unjust back then? Why not just let these wars take place, and leave our noses out of it unless the war reaches our borders? Isn't this what happened countless years ago in the name of supremacy?

The USA is the most powerful nation in the world without doubt. Now, they try to help out during any world crisis, and generally they have good intentions, I believe that.

But let's not forget how they got to be the power they are today, and that was through the waging of these same wars that are taking place today, it's just that the USA picked the right time to conquest, which was countless years ago, and not today.

So, I think that we should just be thankful for what we have today, and realize that for everything we have, that there was a price to be paid or that someone or something had to pay.

To me, Canada is not a greater nation than any other peace-loving nation. We are not better because we have more resources, or are stronger, we are great because we strive to do the best with the resources that we have, and I think other countries are too, albeit with much fewer resources.

The accomplishments of the American people are mind-boggling, but I'd like to think that other countries are similarly capable and intelligent enough had they had the same resources available. Is it wrong for me want to think this way? Should I be angry if a scientist from Somoa comes up with the cure for aids because I wanted Canadian scientist to find the cure and bring glory upon our country? I'd like to see all people excel, and if I excel at certain things better than other people, I don't automatically think it's because I was better or greater than they are.

[docriver]

Cerbrus,

We can go on and on and back and forth, and we probably won't come to an agreement.

Like you, I am very happy I am in North America and I enjoy very much my freedom here that I would not have enjoyed in other countries.

I am happy to be an American, I am proud to be an Ameican. Although I am not always proud of acts of other Americans.

Let's just hope everything turns out well, as well as they can possibly be given the circumstances so far.

[cerberus]

docriver,

Yes, we will probably always have in difference in opinion, but there is nothing wrong with that. That is why people have been opinionating, debating, and arguing since the dawn of time.

I do thank you for being civil in your responses, which is the kind of respect that all posters on this forum should have for one another.

We all know that I am an outsider here in this forum being a relatively new poster, and that many regular posters here have formed bonds, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the negativity, and insults being hurled my way.

To the few posters who saw some substance in my posts, and were kind enough to reply, thank you. To those who didn't agree, but were kind enough to politely disagree, thank you.

[heath]

Cerebrus,

Even by your definition of "great", America stands heads and shoulders above the rest of the free world as well.

When it comes to harmony, respecting of other people's beliefs, etc -- the West stands above the rest of the world. This country affords tremendous opportunity to those of any color or ethnicity.

I can't tell you the number of ethnic business owners where I live in Decatur that came to this country broke and now have middle class or better way of life.

Korean jewelers, Indian resturant owners and Chinese watch and shoe repairers. Millions from around the globe wish to come here and study or work or start a new life.

Tolerance of other's beliefs and customs is one of this nation's strongest points.

Frankly, we lead the entire civilized world in every meaningful category.

You make mention of the great "resources" this country has.

250 years ago, this country was broke. We had nothing but a few uncorruptable truths to govern our citizens by.

Look what we've accomplished in that time. To claim it had anything to do with resources flies in the face of reason. What resources do we have? Oil? Gold? Diamonds? An inheritance from rich relatives. Ha.

We had farmland and the Constitution and a strong belief in freedom.

I know countless -- dozens of people -- with great success stories of starting with NOTHING and overcoming. They are white, black and brown. Some were immigrants, some have elders that worked on Cotton plantations in south Georgia and some are just White Folk.

They share one thing in common: They had no resources other than the opportunity this great Nation afforded them, and a resolve to make a better life without relying on a handout. For them to accept help (or even ask for it) from another person (or God forbid -- the government) was unheard of.

The biggest problem facing these other nations (which you claim would shine if they only had the "resources") is 1 thing: Their government.

(Make no mistake about it, I place most of the blame for Tuesday on the shoulders of OUR politicians).

Any nation or group of people that begins with the incorruptible truth respecting the sovereign right of the individual -- any nation or group of people that begins with the incorruptible belief in free trade among all its people -- that group indeed has the potential for "great"ness.

We just have the luxury of trying it first and having a 200+ head start on the rest of the world. That's plenty because most people don't even understand that Capitalism will make them live longer, better and more free. The marketplace -- that is what makes the world a better place -- not government rules and regulations forbiding our ability to buy and sell. Government sactions that violate the sacred principle of the sovereign individual right of a human being will fail.

Our amazing 200+ year run of achievements is amazing for one reason: Lack of government sanctions on its people. There isn't a single great accomplishment, invention or discovery to come out of this country thanks to the Government. We mapped the Human Genome IN SPITE of the government, not because of it. The same goes for everything else we've managed to do.

Your discussion of the poor is also misplaced. The poor in our country live very well compared to the rest of the world (see the statistic about the middle-class in Paris vs. below the poverty line families here).

However -- we aren't being graded on a curve. We could do better.

Doing better, however, doesn't mean taking money at gunpoint from the rich and giving it to the poor. Doing better means school vouchers so the inner city can get a better high school education. They need to understand that proper business skills and lexicon doesn't mean "Acting White" -- it means learning to prosper in the greatest marketplace the world has ever seen. They need to believe that are more than 3 ways out of the ghetto: Music, Athletics and Drug Dealing aren't the only answers. Their street savvy skills would be of great use in many corporations. Its not about "acting white" or about some massive distinction between the rich and the poor.

Self made men (rich and middle class alike) deserve every penny. Its theirs. They earned it. They don't owe it to the inner city and they don't owe it me or you. The mere ownership (or even hording) of that wealth creates jobs and save lives. That money is invested in "risky" biogentic firms that brazingly map the human genome or develop Alzheimer's drugs. That money is invested in things like the stock market. These things perpetuate and create more jobs -- a better life for everyone. Whether its the janitor or the CEO.

You can't horde money. Put it in a bank and they invest in companies, or loan it out to businesses, etc.

The mere existence of massive amounts of concentrated wealth can change a society. I could tell you about the 40 Billion Dollar Bill and Melissa Gates Fund (biggest charity in the world) that puts computers in inner city schools. I could tell you about internships and scholarships these massive corporations give to the less privilaged.

We do pretty damn good around here, but we could do better.
Doing better means promoting entrepreneurship and teaching sound economic principles to everyone. It means changing the way we think.

It doesn't mean appointing government to control what we do or that taxation is the answer. Its not. It never will be.

The Actuary is also right about American Patrotism. American's aren't Patriotic, they are idiots.

What you are seeing is a knee-jerk reaction to an incredible act of hate. Its the only way we know how to act -- our government sponsored schools failed to teach us how to think.

Our government schools has trained us that Uncle Sam has all the answers. This is evident by the response here at MW and around our country.

Please find one TV Station talking about our foreign policy? Where's the analysis and debate over why we are in this mess?

My first reaction was to bomb-the-daylights-out-of-them as well and I vocalized that. I was wrong, but that's another issue entirely.

My patriotism is not to my government -- its to the amazing principles set forth in the Constitution (which isn't always perfect either) and free trade.

So when I say "This is the greatest country in the world, its not even close" what I really mean is that I have the utmost respect for the people that fought in WWI, WWII and those that shed blood in the Revolutionary War.

I respect them because they fought for the amazing economic system we have that can overcome ALL things.

Cerebrus,

You were right to call us on our statements. Most people don't have an answer for you.

"What's your agenda?"

That answer embarasses me as an American. Since I often talk about how great this country is, I am pretty sure your question was aimed at me -- but I couldn't care less who you are or what your "agenda" is. You asked a valid question.

Unlike others, I understand what made this country so great. I'm not perfect, but I try to keep the empty-headed optimism and patriotism to a bare minimum.

[This message has been edited by heath (edited 09-14-2001).]

[Minnow]

This has nothing to do with:

>>"We all know that I am an outsider here in this forum being a relatively new poster, and that many regular posters here have formed bonds, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the negativity, and insults being hurled my way"<<

I believe it has more to do with your timing. Did you expect sympathy for your weariness of overzealous, flag waving Americans, days after a disaster of this magnitude?

People are trying to cope with the mind boggling horror of 1000's of innocent people blown to smithereens, and you find it important to point out *your* perception of *our* flaws?

If anyone needs to get their "priorities straightened", it's you.

[heath]

AV,

My hat is off to your country. In addition to giving the world AC/DC and INXS, you also gave us George Julius who invented the tote board.

You guys can have horseracing.

I stand my claim that American's invented sports betting or the "pointspread". I submit that they were the first to hang a number on an sport event and open their doors to the world.

I put the burden on you to prove otherwise not because of the rules-of-debate, but because if the United States didn't invent sports betting, we certainly should have.

Heath

[Mr Memory]

Cerberus:

You're vaulting to conclusions in a vain
effort to make points which can't be made
by anyone rational.

Those who devised and executed Tuesday's
activities are making value judgments on
US conduct (both by US government, and our
citizens) which they have no right to
make. Their murder of thousands of US
civilians compound their debased
stupidity.

Folks who conduct themselves as these
creeps did, Tuesday, are indeed a subgroup.
The folks who did this are subhuman, and
must be eliminated.

Others may be drawn in by your sophist
claptrap, but we know better. Take your
phony act where some suckers might be
taken in by it.

[cerberus]

heath,

Your points are well taken. I have never ever been enamoured with any gov't, particularly my own.

We all know that America is the land of opportunity, and that there is no denying that. But like you said, you've known of immigrants that came to America with nothing, and prospered. Thus my point that I believe that people from other countries are also capable of accomplishing things that home-grown Americans accomplish. They just need the opportunity, and America affords them that, which is why countless people are trying to get into the country.

I believe that greatness is in everyone, and I wish that everyone had the chance to fully realize their potential.

I hope that I am wrong but it's just that I think that some Americans use the term greatest in the sense that they are better than citizens from other countries. Your reason for believing that America is the greatest has nothing to do with having an elitist attitude.

I admit I am guilty of this myself sometimes, whenever I make derogatory comments about third world countries. But I always reflect on my thoughts, and I know that I am simply more fortunate than they are, and shouldn't take these liberties for granted.

I may be digressing, but if there is one athlete that impresses me, it is Barry Sanders. Never have I seen him trash talk, gloat, or overcelebrate when he scores a touchdown. His reasoning being, "act like you've been there before." This is a far cry from the, "I'm the greatest" cries from Rickey Henderson. Sports fans know how great a running back Barry Sanders was, he doesn't have to say how great he is.

I have never intended to insult Americans, and I apologize again if anyone thinks that that was my intention. I wouldn't be apologizing over and over again if I didn't truly feel genuine in my reasons for posting on this board.


Minnow,

I am Canadian. I was simply asking a question about why it seemed to me that Americans always needed to emphasize that they were the greatest and most powerful. Perhaps I picked the wrong time to pose the question. Does that really make me cruel or anti-American?

The reason for me asking was primarily because I was deeply concerned about what method of retaliation that the United States would be thinking of taking. To me, the constant re-affirmation of the "we are the most powerful" mentality of many posters here could cloud rational thinking when it came to devising a possible method of action.

It's not like I just happened upon this forum by accident. I have been reading the posts by Majorwager readers for a long time, and I just happened to decide to post now, and only because I was disturbed by some of the thinking of some posters here about "carpet bombing" countries, and other annihalistic approaches.

Even if you believed that I was totally wrong in my line of thinking, was it totally necessary to insult me, instead of kindly pointing out to me where you thought I was wrong?

It takes a brave person like Heath to respond to me in a civil manner, as he is one of the few who have even bothered to respond. But why is it that he can say,

"What you are seeing is a knee-jerk reaction to an incredible act of hate. Its the only way we know how to act -- our government sponsored schools failed to teach us how to think. Our government schools has trained us that Uncle Sam has all the answers. This is evident by the response here at MW and around our country. Please find one TV Station talking about our foreign policy? Where's the analysis and debate over why we are in this mess? My first reaction was to bomb-the-daylights-out-of-them as well and I vocalized that. I was wrong, but that's another issue entirely."

I have no agenda. I am not anti-American. I believe in fact that many Americans are deeply concerned about the definite loss of innocent human lives that will eventually take place. That too, is my biggest concern.