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Heath, the late "Professor" Painter was not a true professor. None of the stuff I learned in his classes produced winners for me. Some of the info and stats he gave out were plain wrong. "Professor" Painter drove an old beater because he never made any serious money betting sports. Professor Painter's most noteworthy pupil: JR Miller.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:[/size]<HR>Originally posted by reno:
Heath, the late "Professor" Painter was not a true professor. None of the stuff I learned in his classes produced winners for me. Some of the info and stats he gave out were plain wrong. "Professor" Painter drove an old beater because he never made any serious money betting sports. Professor Painter's most noteworthy pupil: JR Miller. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know he died broke, but, Lem Banker sez:
"He was one of the smartest people in the business"
Arne Lange mentions him as a pioneer in totals handicapping.
Painter wrote the first book on NFL totals in the early 80s.
I've never read any of his stuff, but the guy had a decent amount of respect from others.
Being broke isn't a crime. I tend to agree with the thought that "If he was such a good handicapper, why was we broke?" -- but the truth is that he was respected as a handicapper and "out of the box thinker" from some of Vegas's supposed best and brightest.
Those who can - do,
those that can't - teach.
"The truth is blah, blah, blah,";
You mean your opinion is, etc.
I love when people who aren't in Vegas tell you about what goes on here.
Fact is there is an old time good old boys network here that vouches for each other, like Banker, etc.
Doesn't mean they are respected by the books or the players.
I can tell you Banker is a non-factor here, I've heard many actually joke about and laugh at him. When he steps into the sports book nobody gives a damn, it's not like E F Hutton's speaking or anything like that.
He took a case to the Gaming Commission last year - and lost.
He cried "foul", they told him take a hike, check the rules before you bet. MGM was found not at fault. Some "pro", only a ****in amatuer doesn't know the stipulations on a bet he makes.
And finally heath you're not counting money made off anyone here, you were transparent to posters since day 1. Nobody fell for mediocreboy's sham. Or his shills.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:[/size]<HR>Originally posted by tommy909:
Heath, Sonny, or anyone else,
At Miller's site, he also talks about his association with Bob McCune. Was he really a professional player, or just another guy selling his story?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I first met JR Miller about 5 years ago when I posted a story that mentione McCune on my site.
JR emailed me about the article, agreeing with everything but my posts about McCune.
I've read all of McCune's books and found them worthless. At the time, some people I knew were getting his stuff and it was awful. I concluded McCune was a pretender and said so.
McCune also had GREAT respect for Painter, but I didn't mention him as a Painter groupie because I don't respect McCune's work as a handicapper.
Its not that I respect Banker or Lange either, but they are names that carry some weight.
I'm not passing judgement on Painter either way -- I've never read his stuff, or took his course or anything else.
However, to call a dead guy a "phony" because he died broke doesn't exactly meet the criteria for a strong, rational well-balanced argument.
Jack Painter....I happened to like reading his stuff. Didn't always agree, but looked forward to any article by him.
One in particular, I cut out and have had it posted on my bullitin board in my office and is now a faded yellow it's been there so long. It was titled.."A Retirement Plan".
The short of it:
You take a $1000 and play 5% of your bankroll. You try to double your bankroll each year, or 20 net wins. Do this for 7 years, and you have $128,000. Then he went on to say how you use it for a retirement income.
Like say you want an income of $64,000. A person could have a goal of 20 net wins, playing 2.5% of the BR and acheive this. Or stay at 5% of BR and only need 10 net wins a year to reach your goal.
When a person is in his 30's, an article like this means little. But I happened to read it a bit longer down the road in my life and it stuck in my mind. I changed the numbers around some to suit my needs and implemented it 3 years ago and am on my way.
I know it's just simple math, and could be thought of by anyone. But he happened to be the guy to put it in print that I saw.
I play almost everyday. But I have "retirement games" that get played into this endeavor maybe twice a month. So far, so good. But dang, the numbers get up there in a hurry, and it will be tough to place such huge wagers...at least for me anyway.
As in anything like this, call it a system or whatever, it still boils down to the individual and his discipline or lack of it.
I agree that most of what is written, and books at the GB Store are not worth the cost of the paper. But you never know when something just seems "right" or fits a certain fellow like a tailored suit. And unless folks do write about sports investing, many pundits may miss out on the simplest things that just may seem to make sense, albeit just to them.
Anyway, I for one felt sadness when Jack Painter died. I felt he was like a partner with me in my attempt at this retirement plan, although I never met him.
Humm, Jack Painter...
...I got his tapes...couldn't get a thing out of them that would help me.
His retirement "method" sounds like retread market advice, only the stock-market advice works:
1) Take $10 a day, put it in a market index fund like the S&P 500.
2) Don't touch it, and don't read the papers.
3) 20 years later emerge as a millionaire.
Netting those 20 games a year is the toughest thing in the world.
I think McCune mentioned once that Painter's NBA methods were quickly adopted into the betting line when he published them -- as I'm sure happens with any sort of statistical approach that works.
You also said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:[/size]<HR>I agree that most of what is written, and books at the GB Store are not worth the cost of the paper. But you never know when something just seems "right" or fits a certain fellow like a tailored suit. And unless folks do write about sports investing, many pundits may miss out on the simplest things that just may seem to make sense, albeit just to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is oh, so true.
The best books are the ones that don't give specific methods, but encourage new ways of thinking about handicapping.
That being said, there are some FANTASTIC books on sports betting and gambling. I'd go so far as to say that if you haven't read these books, you aren't winning what you should:
GAMBLING THEORY AND OTHER TOPICS
-- Probably the best book ever written on gambling and math
GETTING THE BEST OF IT
-- More of the same
GAMBLING FOR A LIVING
-- not as good as those above, but still some great ideas.
THE HALF BOOK
-- never read it, only leafed through a friend's copy several times. GREAT STUFF from long Vegas BM Granowski. Appears to be a must read.
HOW PROFESSIONAL GAMBLERS BEAT THE PRO FOOTBALL POINSTPREAD
-- goofy title, by a controversial author but it was one of the few handicapping books that challenged the way I looked at handicapping
Like you said, most of the stuff is junk. Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky are about as good as it gets.
Skylansky talks about stuff like analyzing progressive keno machines which were pretty earth shattering when the book appeared (I think).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:[/size]<HR>Originally posted by KingOfTheSquares:
I also read McCune's books...
...all crap. Couldn't use a thing.
Maybe I'm just too square to understand demi-god handicapper talk...
[This message has been edited by KingOfTheSquares (edited 03-17-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha. I don't think so.
Beating the line is tough, if not next to impossible for one person (talking about the big "6" here: NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL and NCAAF and NCAAB)
I think that getting a stable of opinions you trust, doing your own work and firing away is the best approach.
The other alternative is to become a super scalper play one book against the other when the money line moves in NHL, NBA, etc, etc. You'll do okay in the offseason, but when THE SEASON (MLB) comes around, you'll prolly do really well as long as sitting in front of computer for 8 hrs a do is your idea of having life.
There are some public guys that have consistently won in some sports over the years:
Jeff Borchert (JB Sports) in NFL, NCAAF and NBA is about as good as it gets.
Al McMordie (NBA, NFL)
Here we go again: JR MILLER (NBA, NFL)
George Henry (Rising Star Sports) NBA and NFL.
Personally, I think you are better off trying to nail jello to a tree than trying to overcome 11:10.
A guy in ATL that I know just won over 7 figures for his 4th year in a row. He said it best:
"That 10% is stronger than death".
[This message has been edited by heath (edited 03-17-2001).]
I've read McCune's babblings as well. I think he went to the Edgar Allan Poe school of writing!
Heath, after all this JR Miller bashing, I admire your sense of courage to post his name above.
[This message has been edited by tommy909 (edited 03-17-2001).]
Heath, forget 8 hours a day in front of the computer. Try 13, and that doesn't include doing the books.
Painter's retirement plan didn't work for him. He retired broke. Lem Banker? He made his big money shading people he moved for. When Roxy replaced Bob Martin and sportsbetting became computerized, he was left in the dust as far as real handicapping goes. His final advice to me was to invest in Ginny Mae's. Bob McCune? I'm still waiting for him to say something profound and useful.
I am a voracious reader putting away an avg. of 2 books per week but I don't think I have ever read a handicapping book.
Haven't read McCunes, only know that when I hear people speak of him they speak highly of the 'man', nothing in regards to 'capping though.
Banker is the opposite, have never heard a decent word spoken about him out here, always the butt of jokes. And usually in regards to his 'stature' as a well known Vegas gambler.
Ha ha .. it gets even better.. J.R. now defends his record by posting up this rehash of a utter load of bollocks http://www.professionalgambler.com/whatsyourrecord.html
The funniest thing is at the bottom of this article he touts a winning day of NHL (one of his few) yet neglects to mention on the same day he had five picks for the NBA and lost all of them.. for a nice total of $-160 for the day.. very devious.
NBA RAPTORS +6.0 -107 at Heat Heat 103-83 Lost -100
NBA Raptors at Heat UND 180.0 -107 Heat 103-83 Lost -100
NBA BULLS +346 at Cavaliers Cavaliers 94-86 Lost -100
NBA KNICKS +159 at Hornets Hornets 81-67 Lost -100
NBA 76ERS -1.5 -107 at Rockets 76ER 85-84(ot) Lost -100
NHL HURRICANES +126 at Rangers Hurricanes 3-2 Won 126
NHL CANADIENS +1.5 -110 at Penguins Penguins 3-1 Lost -100
NHL BRUINS +195 at Mapleafs Bruins 2-1 Won 195
NHL Bruins at Mapleafs UND 5.5 -115 Bruins 2-1 Won 87
NHL DEVILS +110 at Stars Devils 4-1 Won 110
NHL COYOTES +126 at Canucks Canucks 6-2 Lost -100
NHL WILD +122 at Ducks Wild 5-0 Won 122
NHL Wild at Ducks OVR 5.0 +112 Wild 5-0 Tied 0
NHL OILERS +179 at Sharks Sharks 6-1 Lost -100