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Old 06-29-2003, 08:26 PM
Minnow Minnow is offline
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Default BetCBS/ Dave Johnson's final word on Areef situation

Though I've never done business with him, from what I have read and gathered over time, I've always thought Dave was one of the good guys, and wanted to extend him benefit of the doubt in this situation. Here is the latest, and final word from Dave.


posted at RX June 29, 2003 01:52 PM
Let me begin by saying that the enclosed response is for the purpose of clearing up some untruths that have been posted here and is for the benefit of the readers and the many concerned players who have held betCBS in high regard for many years. I am not going to come back in and argue this item further. My final decision has already been made on the customer 'Areef' along with the other players affected. I will not use this forum to argue my policies. I will not attempt to try to fight posters who may not agree with the decision. After reading my decision each player can make his own opinion about how the situation was handled and can decide if they want to play at betCBS in the future.

This post was not made sooner because I have been out of town for the last couple days and there has been an impending investigation made on the accounts in question. I apologize for not clearing the air the last couple days but I did not want to respond to a complant without having the facts of every detail. I appreciate being given the opportunity to explain and I hope the forum will keep an open mind when reading how I dealt with the problem. There are a few things that have not been said and I think you will find them very interesting. Other books deal with this same problem everyday. Many times you do not hear about the situation because it is normally silenced before it becomes public knowledge. I did not give into the threats made and that is why you have had the pleasure of reading the one-sided version of the situation the last few days from the player 'Areef'.

I guess Ill start by giving a run down of EXACTLY what transpired on the tennis bet in question. All times that I list below are Eastern time.

The line on the tennis match in question was posted at 6:00 PM on Sunday June 22nd. The line was opened at +400. Other books who were using that same Matchup at the time:

William Hill Nadal +300
Victor Chandler Nadal +250
Ladbrokes Nadal +350
As you can see even the +400 we were using at betCBS was a little high.

Wagers were taken on both sides of the match up until 9:45 that evening. At that point we had taken bets on both players but we were heavy on the dog. The line manager on staff (who does work the entire evening) moved the line incorrectly. Instead of moving the match to +350 he moved it istead to +605. We are not sure why this happened but it can be assumed it was a simple case of human error.

We took many bets on the Matchup throughout the evening and right up until it went off the board. The line manager did not realize the mistake until three bets came in minutes apart on Nadal for the maximum limit(total of $3000).
The Matchup was immediately closed and we started to investigate the situation.

The first thing we do in a situation like this one is profile each account. When a 'bad line' is posted the book forces itself into a lose-lose situation. If we cancell the bet completely we look like thieves in the eyes of everyone involved. If we pay the player knowing full well that he only made the wager because of the discrepancy then we are encouraging this type of 'cherry picking' and put ourselves and the future success of the business at the mercy of these type of players. At betCBS we try to find the right middle ground to treat all players fairly.

We have it written very clearly on our website under the Sportsbook Rules #18:

" Casablanca reserves the right to cancel any wager placed on an incorrect line. "
Keep in mind this rule is not written in order to to give betCBS free reign to cancell wager at will. The rule is in place so we can use it in situations where it is discovered the player purposely acted in a dishonest way to take advantage of an obvious error.
The first step I took was to look at each wager as well as each account that placed the wager. The wagers that were taken at +400 the previous night were all obviously honored. Every wager placed before the line was moved incorrectly was paid out in full. The wagers that were taken during the night after the error by the line manager were all investigated. The only wagers that were cancelled by us at betCBS were from 4 seperate accounts and I will explain below why they were cancelled. Please keep in mind that there were 5 other accounts that made wagers that night and morning @ +605 on this Matchup and they were paid in full at the incorrect line:
Here is the criteria I used to decide which players were allowed to keep the wagers:
1st Wager Type
Do these players normally wager on Tennis or any other Matchup sports?
2nd Wager Amount
Was the amount wagered representative of the normal wager amount for that player or was the Amount exagerrated in order to take advantage of the bad line?
3rd Wager History
Is the player and everyday player or simply someone who comes in and only makes a wager on an obvious mistake?
4th Past Offenses
Has this player ever been warned previously about the ' bad line' policy?
5th IP Information
Is there anything strange in regards to the information the player registered and the IP address being used? Can it be assumed that multple players colluded to bypass wager limits or maximize the mistake to their benefit?

As I mentioned before there were 5 Accounts who wagered on the incorrect line and I still honored their wager and paid them in full. Each of those 5 accounts had previously wagered on a Matchup Sport. Each of those 5 players wagered an amount on this Matchup that was representative of their average wager. Each of those accounts plays consistently on any number of sports and wager types. None of those 5 players had ever been warned in the past in regards to betting into a 'bad line'. Every account had an IP address that was representative of the account information they registered when opening the account and no collusion could be assumed.

Here is why the other Four Accounts were flagged including 'Areef':
All four accounts were very sporadic players. Every wager made up until that point was only made on lines that were weak or there was considerable value. These players were 'shoppers' who used betCBS only when a line had value. Between the four Accounts they did not even have twenty total wagers and the average wager amount was much less than the $1000 that each account bet on this single Matchup. Although all four players never had bet an incorrect line previously so they never received warning. Two of the accounts including 'Areef' were from the very same state and had similar IP's.
(Important to note here inregards to these 4 players. We never closed their accounts even though they were 'shoppers' because I do not discourage that type of action. betCBS does not mind if players use us to scalp or middle. If a player has an acount and I am using +250 on a game and the player can lay -240 at another shop than I welcome that type of action. The problem only arises when those same players come in and blatantly take advantage of an error as is the case in question.)
As we followed up further on the four accounts in question we decided to focus mainly on the two Accounts that were from the same state. The other two accounts including the one from Italy wagered at different times and the IP addresses were completely different. Investigating the two accounts in question further we realized from Internet Traffic Reports that 'Areef' and the account he colluded with were using what is called a 'spider program' in order to find discrepancies in the lines. The system runs automatically and pulls lines from many different books to pinpoint scalps or major differences in the lines. I do not throw out players who use these types of programs but it does lend support to the fact that the line was off and that is the reason why 'Areef' was betting into the line. Another important thing to mention that both bets made by 'Areef' and his other account were made minutes apart and both were made for $1000.
So here is what we have in summary:
Nine Wagers made on an incorrect Tennis Line all on the dog @ +605.
Five of the Nine Accounts were paid in full by betCBS. These accounts were all Paid in Full because none of the accounts colluded and none of the accounts exceeded their wager limit.
Two of the Four remaining accounts were deemed seperate cases and the remaining two colluded together using a 'spider program' to further take advantage of an obvious bad line.
Of the Four Accounts in question we credited each account for a $500 wager @ +300 and sent emails to all warning them that in the future betting into an obvious bad line would result in a no action bet and a cancellation of their account.
After further review I feel the two seperate cases may have been handled to severly. I will send emails to both tomorrow and credit each one of them with the +605 bet at their average wager amount.
Areef and the account he colluded with will recieve nothing more than the $1500 I have already credited them in their accounts. If they wish to remain players they are more than welcome. They may use their 'spider program' to continue to use betCBS as a scalp. However, if they do bet into an incorrect line in the future their wagers will be cancelled. I think they are professional enough to understand what is the difference between a correct and incorrect line.
I am sure Areef will continue to argue this point and in the future will bring other books to the forefront in order to attempt to extort them into giving away money. I hope other books will stand against this type of behavior and any book interested in information on Areef and his 'spider program' can email me dave@betcbs.com
In conclusion to this whole fiasco I hope that the members of the Prescription will keep an open mind when deciding how you think this situation was handled.
As I mentioned before it is a lose-lose situation. Each account has to be handled seperately and the best possible decision has to be made after reviewing all the circumstances. We paid out a considerable amount of money on a mistake. I take responsibility for the mistake but understand it is a cost of doing business.
The main reason I came in today to defend the arguement is because we do have a large number of good players including Krackman and other Prescription members who have always praised us in the past. I appreciate that praise and hope they will continue to do so in the future.
These players who have been with us a long time undertsand that we do not chase wiseguys. We do not chase scalpers. We do not chase professional players. We may not be the ideal out for a professional player but we respect our pro's and they know they always get paid.
Areef is not a line mover or even a recreational player. He is someone who bets an incorrect line and then feels he can use the forum as his tool to try to extort a god book into changing their policies.
Just to be clear:
If you have an account at betCBS and you play the moves you will always be PAID.
If you have an account at betCBS and you scalp you will always be PAID.
If you have an account at betCBS and you play for recreation you will always be PAID.

If you have an account at betCBS and you sit online and wait for incorrect lines you will be warned the first time and then your account will be closed.

I work too hard to create great bonus promotions like our 5% back weekly to give away the store to a guy who uses a 'spider program' to bet an incorrect line and then cries about it on the forums.
I am sorry I could not come in sooner to explain why I made the decision but I wanted to be sure of all the facts before posting. I hope I did not come off too strong.

For some reason I have developed a reputation as being a 'hot head' with a few people. If this is the case I apologize. I enjoy talking to players and I enjoy working hard to stay compettitve with the bigger books.

After all this is said and done I hope the players will still respect betCBS. We worked hard and will continue to work hard in the future to be fair and honest.

As always I will take all emails and respond individually to either moderators or players.

Thanks for your time

Dave Johnson
betCBS.com
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 08:48 PM
HIT ME AGAIN HIT ME AGAIN is offline
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Is this some kind of joke, you stole from a player after the game was over, pay the man, if you did this in the states you would be arrested for robbery!!
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Old 06-29-2003, 08:49 PM
lakerfan lakerfan is offline
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Am still unclear on how there is enough of a reason to pay the other customers, but not Areef. I understand that his and the other account don't meet Dave's "criteria" for an ideal customer, but none of the criteria in my mind points to a scam customer. Maybe an opportunist, but I say pay the guy and kick him out.
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Old 06-29-2003, 08:53 PM
areeff areeff is offline
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This is a complete joke. See my post on the RX about this but at this point he's paying out +150 when even the worst of lines was +250. How is this not theft?

A comment i did not add in the RX post is that he complains about me shopping the best line.

My family raised me well and they taught me to buy things when they are on sale. Only a fool pays full retail, but apparently only fools bet at betcbs daily. The 20 c line and 5% back is 95% of the time worse than pinnacle's lines which they clone anyways.
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:09 PM
oldfriend oldfriend is offline
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Well i'm glad they notice the wagers and badline, and would of refunded the wagers if they lost...Dave[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:13 PM
jlpblade jlpblade is offline
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Isn't tip-ex a "spider" program? If so, do you now have to hide your use of it if you play at Dave's book?
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:14 PM
FatFrank FatFrank is offline
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"Of the Four Accounts in question we credited each account for a $500 wager @ +300 and sent emails to all warning them that in the future betting into an obvious bad line would result in a no action bet and a cancellation of their account." - Dave Johnson

Bad move by CBS/Dave [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]

It is scary when a book decides what amount is a player's normal bet!!!

Dave, if you're going to pay him -- PAY THE FULL AMOUNT OF HIS BET.

Either that or do not pay him at all...

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Old 06-29-2003, 09:18 PM
jlpblade jlpblade is offline
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I just checked and betcbs doesn't seem to be on tip-ex.
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:36 PM
Rogthedodger Rogthedodger is offline
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There are so many things that bother me in this statement, none of which have much to do with this specific case---it has to do with the "philosophy" of the book. Just to name a few:

All four accounts were very sporadic players. Every wager made up until that point was only made on lines that were weak or there was considerable value. These players were 'shoppers' who used betCBS only when a line had value.

Huh? Aren't ALL gamblers only supposed to place wagers where there is value? You expect your players to play bad lines with you out of some kind of loyalty? I have 100's of books at my disposal, if I was signed up with you, you can bet that you would never get one single wager from me that I couldn't get at a cheaper price elsewhere....even if you were my own mother.

betCBS does not mind if players use us to scalp or middle.

How kind of you!


There are several other items that confuse me, but I've already seen enough to know I want no part of this mess.
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:45 PM
jjgold jjgold is offline
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BAD MOVE CBS, NOW THEY WILL VOID ANY BET THEY GET HAMMERED ON

PULL OUT!!!
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Old 06-29-2003, 10:11 PM
Holy Bull Holy Bull is offline
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<<

We took many bets on the Matchup throughout the evening and right up until it went off the board. The line manager did not realize the mistake until three bets came in minutes apart on Nadal for the maximum limit(total of $3000).
The Matchup was immediately closed and we started to investigate the situation.

>>



Here's the problem...they could have cancelled before the match went off....they knew about it....and they did not cancel at that time. They chose to take a shot. If the fav won, they would have kept the money. After this it makes no difference how off the lines are or what type of players bet the line, they could have cancelled, they took a shot, they lost.
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Old 06-29-2003, 10:15 PM
nostaw1952 nostaw1952 is offline
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I've referred many players to them, and spoke with a higher up on Friday. I told him this reflects badly on them, he said Dave would be back in a few days and address the situation. He did, but obviously to no avail. I'm about as pro bettor on bad lines as you can get, so it's not surprising that I think they are dead wrong here.
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Old 06-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Inside The Pylons Inside The Pylons is offline
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<< Wagers were taken on both sides of the match up until 9:45 that evening. At that point we had taken bets on both players but we were heavy on the dog. The line manager on staff (who does work the entire evening) moved the line incorrectly. Instead of moving the match to +350 he moved it istead to +605. We are not sure why this happened but it can be assumed it was a simple case of human error. >>





<< We took many bets on the Matchup throughout the evening and right up until it went off the board. The line manager did not realize the mistake until three bets came in minutes apart on Nadal for the maximum limit(total of $3000). >>




<< The Matchup was immediately closed and we started to investigate the situation. >>



Dave admits right here in this quote that they knew before the match started. If they didn't cancel the bet then, they were taking a shot to wait till after the result to decide whether to pay or not. It is unacceptable to have the opportunity to cancel a bet when the mistake is discovered and wait till after the event is over to decide the player's fate.

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Old 06-29-2003, 10:21 PM
nostaw1952 nostaw1952 is offline
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I'm sure the answer to that will be that they had to "complete their investigation" and if all 9 players had been found to be non-bad line abusers, than all 9 of them would have been paid with a smile and a hearty handshake. Right.
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Old 06-29-2003, 10:44 PM
HG HG is offline
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Casablanca was one of the best books out there as of 8 months ago. Then things started changing for the worse, a lot worse. I asked a few guys on here wtf was going on but they either weren't playing there or were pretty clueless, or one of the many sportbook sycophants that this site is plagued with. Now, I understand the games that a lot of guys on here play and I respect guys like reality who know much more about this business then I ever will but when he came in a few months ago and said that they were just as good as ever then I knew that something was up. I didn't bother getting into it with him - I just stated that his opinion was quite outdated. The reason being, around april of this year things stared taking a dramatic turn at cbs, and I'm not talking about isolated incidents either.

This book had it all. I don't know who, what , when , where, why or how, but everything started changing at that time. I mean, they made some of the most amateurish, boneheaded decisions of any book that I've ever played at, and that list includes SIA, the rock, and Yahoops. And this wasn't a case of a book making changes to get around a guy who was killing them because I was break-even, at best , with them. They made decisions that cost them an absolute tonne of action from many players and they didn't even seem to care. In fact, as time went on, it seemed that the less action they took , the happier they were. I tried to get to the bottom of it but I was refused access to the guys in charge on more than 1 occasion. So, with so many other books to play at, instead of wasting my time arguing with them about wtf was going on with their decision-making , I just picked up my chips and left.

To this day, I still have no idea what the hell happened at casa that made them go from one of the best to one of the most inept in such a short period of time. It really was a shame because I hadn't been there for that long, but I certainly enjoyed the time that I did spend there, until things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

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Old 06-29-2003, 10:50 PM
jjgold jjgold is offline
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CBS made the biggest blunder in offshore history. I do not know how they are going to play players and stay in business with the massive pullout that is going to take place.

Hopefull all your post up money boys is safe and they have it in a seperate account, if not your cooked.

Good Luck
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Old 06-29-2003, 10:51 PM
areeff areeff is offline
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Java from RXposted one of the most eloquent pieces on this issue. I will not even try to steal his ideas so i will just paste them here.

"
Why Dave Johnson's post is inconsistent:
1) Dave admits that the +605 line was available since 9:45pm
the previous night AND that a line manager was there the
whole time. So, of the nine bets he got, he is honoring 5.
The other 4, bets he is breaking up into two groups of 2
and saying one group is a separate case from Areef.
(Notice the backing off of the rumor they put in
bettorspub and here that Areef had 4 accounts, without
any apology to Areef).
2) He said the other 5 accounts also got paid, because they
didn't exceed their wager limits. Areef didn't exceed
his limit either. The limit on Tennis was $1000, and
that is what Areef bet.
3) How can Dave claim a line that was available for 8-9 hours
is a BAD LINE, if a line manager was available the whole time?
How long does a line have to be up for it to be THE line?
According to Dave's story, Areef was at the tail end of the
8+ hours? So, if Areef had made the bet the night before, and
mentioned it to a buddy 8 hours later, would Casablanca have
still honored both bets? What if there is an injury
report overnight? What if Areef bet $120 each hour for
all 8 hours?
4) If Casablanca really knew about the problem at the time of the
bet, why was it graded a winner? Why not hold off grading while
you investigate? Seems more likely that they didn't know anything
about it until they noticed a big loss for the day, then they had
to scramble to figure out why.
5) He claims that Areef used a spider program and
"I do not throw out players who use these types of programs".
He invites them to continue to use spider program and scalp.
But, he complains that the Areef has bet weak numbers in the past
(Duh),
and then uses Areef's past history of betting weak number as
an excuse to not pay the full amount on the bet.
6) BTW, Dave, how is the Spider program YOU started building
2 months ago working out for you? Could this be your reason
for declaring spiders okay (for when you get caught)?
7) If he paid all the other players, how is honoring Areef's bet
"giving away the store"? How small is the store?
Sounds to me like Areef is being punished for speaking out.
8) The IP address argument is VERY weak. Areef admitted he told a
buddy about the number. Gosh, two guys in the same state that
know each other and discussed a play. What are the odds?
Gee, could they have the same ISP (maybe same cable company)?
9) If Dave is really going to declare these two as one account,
then it should be one max bet of $1000 for the +605 he is
honoring. Because, if Areef didn't call his friend, there
would only be one bet, and Areef would have gotten grouped
with the 5 that Casablanca is honoring. (I find the
'same account' argument weak, but if true, then $6050
to one account would be fair amount, not $1500 each.)
10) This "average bet" argument is also nonsense. What is the guy's
previous MAX bet, not average bet? Don't forget, Dave Johnson
tried lying to Areef earlier, claiming the limit on Tennis was
really $200.
11) Hot head is an understatement. Ranting and raving lunatic is
the more common description. The reputation is well earned."

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Old 06-29-2003, 10:59 PM
jjgold jjgold is offline
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CAUGHT RED HANDED DAVE

PAY THE PLAYER OR FACE A MASSIVE PULLOUT
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Old 06-29-2003, 11:00 PM
Peep Peep is offline
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Well.

For sure no place to be a postup player.

The thing that gets me, these books think we should bet into any line they offer (all the time).

Wakey wakey guys. In most instances, the only time you are going to get a bet out of most of us is when you have the best line on the event we want to bet. If you have a problem with that, you really have no business being in this business.
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