The Truth About Online Poker Part I - Between the Rake and the Rocks

[pokerinsider]

First came Paradise.

They had such a head start on the rest it was absurd.

They dominated the marketplace with little competition. They advertised in poker magazines but didn't really need to, especially when their only competition (planetpoker) was caught with a faulty random number generator. Sophisticated players were able to know the flop and player's hole cards.

Others quickly entered the marketplace, but struggled.

The games at Paradise were good at first, but part of the problem is that the games go so fast. Good players were able to play 2 games or more. Between the rake and the rocks, the bad players got massacred. The "average pot size" reading and other indicators on the software let everyone know where the good games were. The better players with computers with 2 monitors were able to play in 3 full games at once. Its harder to "tilt" when playing in 3 games at once because there is always another hand coming so players that have a problem with steaming in a live casino game don't suffer as bad under these circumstances.

A full holdem game in a casino can get about 30 hands an hour with a good dealer. Online, 100+ hands per hour can be dealt. The bad players go broke so quickly.

Paradise realized this and began developing "bots" or computerized players that sit in the tables to make the games look full.

The better players got all the money, but the bots proposed a big problem.

Short handed games were very profitable for the better middle to lower limit players (Paradise only spreads 20/40 or lower). The higher limit games were dominated by good players and their partnerships.

Shorthanded games would last about 10 minutes and the seats would start filling up with computerized bits and bytes.

These bots weren't so good at first but got better quickly thanks to the programmers that work for Paradise. The best players at Paradise can still beat these mechanincal, cyber creatures but when a game is full of tough players and a few cyber-savants, it becomes a waste of time.

This is especially evident in some full games (even the 3/6) -- you might have a AA in the big blind and everyone will fold to you. This would rarely happen in a casino $3/$6 game but you see it all the time online. When was the last time you got your big blind back in a casino $3/$6 game because no one called? Happens all the time online.

A good player can play a tight, straight forward game and make about $12-$15 an hour in the lower limit games provided he can play 2 games at once and devote his full attention to each game.

While Paradise was getting all the money, others interested in the online poker boom were hard at work developing software and making plans to get their fingers in the pie.

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Questions or Comments?

PokerInsider

[Bobby C]

You've stated everything as a fact. Nowhere do you mention that any of this is an opinion, or a theory.

But you fail to provide any support for any of your "facts". For example, you write, 'Paradise realized this and began developing "bots" or computerized players that sit in the tables to make the games look full.' But you don't provide any evidence to support this accusation. You don't say that you've ever worked for PP, which would give you this intimate knowledge. You don't quote any of PP's alleged genius programmers who designed these "bots".

You have nothing. Or at the very least, if you have *something*, you've failed to present it.

I'm no PP apologist. I've played there, and withdrew my money when I thought some fishy stuff was going on. When I say "fishy", I don't necessarily mean "dishonest". I don't think the cards are truly random, but this could be caused by incompetence, or technological shortcomings. Or, it COULD be a conspiracy, but I'm more inclined to believe that an honest game would make the house more money than a game with questionable integrity. However, this is strictly my OPINION, and I have absolutely no FACTS to present here.

But it's human nature, when confronted with a mysterious occurance, to find out WHY something is happening. And if the "why" is not apparent, it's human nature to make something up, to fill in that blank. This is why poker dealers get yelled at by losing players. The losing player doesn't know WHY he's losing, so he blames the dealer. He has no logical basis to blame the dealer--he just made it up. Having a faulty reason to blame, feels better than not knowing WHY something is happening.

That's what the PP conspiracy theorists (as well as the "fixed games" theorists, and while we're at it, ALL conspiracy theorists) do. They want to know WHY they're losing, so in the absence of fact or logic, they make something up. Or, they subscribe to a theory that they've already heard. This theory, too, was made up!

(BTW, I believe that's how religion was invented. Whenever man was confronted by something where he didn't understand the "why", such as an eclipse, or a thunderstorm, or a tragic accident, or even creation of the universe....he simply made something up. Having an explanation that defies logic FEELS BETTER than having a gaping hole where the explanation belongs.)

Bobby

[The Actuary]

Nice bit of fiction can't wait for part II,

is the sub-title "A Loser's Lament"?

I've played approximately 450,000 online for money hands in the past couple years,

and my earn is greater than any live AC game i've sat in.

TA

[Bobby C]

Maybe we can re-name Chapter One, "Between the Rake and The Actuary".

Bobby

[The Actuary]

Bobby you've played online,

you know the routine, new place pops up,

attracts some fish, the sharks move in and clean them out,

and so on and so on,

the beauty of inet poker is the ability to follow bad players around inconspicously and since the ultimate bottomline is finding/playing players worse than yourself, the internet does a pretty good job facilitating this.

of course cheating exists and of course the regulars are very tough,

but to extrapolate into some Bradbury fantasy is a little ridiculous.

have a happy holiday BC!

TA

[SlipperyPete]

I tend to agree with pokerinsider, although i have no proof. But look at it logically. PP compared to
other places is always full. Even Planet Poker is a ghost town compared to PP. There are always at least a
hundred games for real money going on. Even in you have a conservative estimate they make at least 200
dollars a minute( assuming about 2 games a minute, 1 dollar rake per game). That is 12000 an hour, 288.000 US dollars a day
I just simply dont believe that there is enough of an incoming cash stream to keep that up.
I have two question for you pokerpros. Do you think there is cheating softwerwise at PP.
Also is headsup poker profitable with rake capped at 1 dollar max per game.(50cents at 20 and 40 dollars)

[Peckle]

Why is it so hard to believe that PP can have more than 2000 ppl playing poker 24/7 when there's at least 100 million poker players around the world!!!!!

They don't need to cheat!!!! With the rake and interest that they earn off of deposits, these guys will be billionaires in no time!!!!

There are always stupid players drawing gutshots and little pairs to the death online!!!! so badbeats will happen!!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[The Actuary]

Smalldaddy,

I've conversed, until they Ko'ed my chat with every single person I've ever played with there how would that be possible if they are 'bots'?

And why use 'bots' when like real rooms there is a worldwide supply of props?

As far as why? Two reasons, first the number you quoted are not just ring games, but as an online player there is no other site other than Planet where one can constantly find a wide range of games at a wide range of stakes.

About cheating, I do not think the larger places engage in cheating via software or that explicit cheating is a rampant problem, I think there may be some implicit cheating, like a guy playing two hands in the same omaha game thereby giving him a look at four extra cards a hand. But it is my understanding any winning outside the realm of reality is closely scrutinized and the rare instances I suspected outright collusion have been thoroughly investigated and expulsions have taken place in situations that it's warranted.

I don't play heads-up but find it interesting WSEX uses that .50 cap not only in heads up but even in the high limit full table games.

TA

[SlipperyPete]

Hey Actuary if you want we can play headsup for playmoney right now if you are still here

[The Actuary]

Hey thx for the invite I'm just headed out for New Years,

i'll take a raincheck, we can rap about the upcoming year's market as well.

next time we're both around for sure!

TA

[pokerinsider]

Mr C,

Not sure what a "Paradise Conspiracy" is. The RNG that paradise uses is good and if it wasn't, Bobby, there is absolutely no way you could tell with the naked eye.

Actuary,

Glad you are able to earn. There are many near-WCP that also earn. You may or may not be happy to know this isn't much to brag about.

I am not sure what Part II will be called, but it will be the truth, just like what was posted above.

Sorry I can't post my resume, boys.

I thought this was a place to share information. I could be wrong and if no one wants to hear PART 2 then maybe I won't bother. I won't go away mad, but I will just go away.

PokerInsider

[The Actuary]

It's a free world,

post what you like,

it's not bragging who the f would be proud to know they've wasted X part of their life playing online cards?, it's called, I played there for an eternity and a day,

you?

[The Actuary]

These bots so life like they can engage in human like chat?

After the first of this sort of fiction appeared that became my number one rule.

[pokerinsider]

Actuary,

Where do you play? Maybe my next chapter will be about where you like to hang out online.

You've chatted with every single player you've ever played poker with at Paradise? That seems remarkbly impossible but I will take your word for it.

WSEX will have to wait for PART III, assuming I am not thrown in the gallows in the meantime.

PokerInsider

PS I'd tell you what Paradise rakes a month but no one will believe it

[pokerinsider]

Actuary,

I should have called this 'The History of Online Poker' as it isn't some expose on Paradise.

Chat is the best way to tell you are playing with real people.

The only problem I have with Paradise is that I'm not "in".

But I remain,
PokerInsider

[The Actuary]

I have notes on just under 1500 players I've played vs online,

if a player did not or would not utter a peep in the chat,

I'd send a mail to the host asking if the player's chat was turned off,

if the answer was no, i'd query one of dozens of regulars I knew,

if they still said no, i avoid that nick, there are exactly six on that list

and anyone here that i've played with, there a few, know that the chat is part of my schtick.

Okay now lets look at this objectively,

they recently shut off my chat, I flat out told them after well over 325,000 raked hands either turn it on or i'm not coming back,

their response, good riddance, now if a place was so starved for money, why would they tell a good paying customer to basicall f off?

I assume fr your response the bots cannot chat, and I challenge anyone to name paradise nicks that are bots?

[pokerinsider]

Actuary,

To my knowledge no bot can chat or simulate it, other than something like "ooooowww" when they win a pot. Interaction with these creatures doesn't exist.

Why did they turn off your chat?

[The Actuary]

I gotta run,

feel free to post chapters ad nauseum, but as BC posted it's really nothing more than conjecture and supposition.

my chat has been turned on and off numerous times for several reasons,

usually just a "I promise to never do it again" gets it switched back on, but i'm actually pleased things didn't work out this time, as i've been doing better playing more at the other sites, as far as where I play, I play wherever the fish are. Unfortunately, I have a soft spot for 7cs hi/lo and Paradise is really the only place spreading a game 24/7, so i'd foresake a better hold'em game for a worse 7cs hi/lo game frequently. Now i'm realizing just how much that cost me.

have a good new years, I look forward to future chapters, but gotta be real if you think anyone, not just myself a devoted player would not question a post devoid of facts.

TA

[Bobby C]

<< I thought this was a place to share information. I could be wrong and if no one wants to hear PART 2 then maybe I won't bother. I won't go away mad, but I will just go away. >>



Your first post ended with the words, "Questions or comments?"

I commented.

Where's the problem? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

These places would be boring if everybody always agreed. Stand by your opinion. Don't feel "attacked" when someone disagrees with you.

But this is a VERY sharp audience, from top to bottom. If you can't support your claims, you're going to get called on it here.

You see, if you have a solid case, NOW would be a great time to present the evidence that we pointed out was missing in your first post. Since you still haven't done that, we must assume that you don't have any, and that the whole concept of bots was MADE UP by someone.

Bobby